Tell Me - Is Sonar capable of competing with ProTools?

[Shonsteez]

Will Sonar let me do almost or basically tha same thing i would be able to in protools as for mastering and such?....
I mean what is tha primary things that you would use protools for vs. sonar?

I jus got sonar, so im eager to see what im capable of doing with it.

Steeze

[bigdmakintrax]

The thing that would be considered an advantage is that protools has proprietary hardware that supposedly enhances it's software capabilities.....I have sonar and protools 5.1....and I have done a lot of sessions in both and I keep asking myself what the real advantage is and using a mia soundcard with sonar I find that when I compare mixes the sound is actually warmer in Sonar.....I had to buy extra plugins for protools that cost a lot to actually do more mastering work in it.

[Fade]

I have Sonar and it's amazing. You can do so much with it, there's tons of possibilities and I can't see a reason why it would not help you get the job done.

[vitaminman]

Yes.

For those people who want to debate this, please tell us why it is NOT competitive with PT.

Nick

[dacalion]

hey Nick, because I have PT...lol. Sonar is great, I don't have it but a close freind of mine does and it's actually better (per say...) than ProTools in some cases. I'm just a die hard PT man and I'm not telling why...hahaha.

--dac

[Shonsteez]

Soooo...

What are some cool things you guys use sonar for?
I was assuming that i would jus try to use it to maybe enhance tha mix of tracks in tha prgm after i export to wav.
What are some good presets or for that matter - just good effects to tweak and mess with to amp/widen/master...etc??

[themucka]

pro tools anyday of the weak..... if you have the money theres no comparison....
the only thing that can hang with pro tools is LOGIC.....

THE PLUG-INS ARE MORE MONEY4 PT BUT THAT CUZ THEY DO MORE 4 YOU....
MY FRIEND HAS SONAR... AND DOES HIS CPU BEATS... AND THEY JUS SOUND THIN

[vitaminman]

The Mucka,

If you took your friend's tracks that he already made in Sonar, dropped them into PT, would they sound better immediately?

Nick

[Some Guy]

I think first we need to know what version of ProTools we're talking about. Theres a big difference between a ProTools HD system, and a Digi-001. The HD systems have DSP cards that handle all the audio with zero latency and cpu load. But the 001 is just a regular audio recorder with a audio card just like Sonar, Cubase, Logic, DP etc. Pro Tools itself has WAY less features than Sonar, or Cubase, or Logic. Especially when it comes to midi editing and even some audio stuff. Its funny when people get juiced off using a Digi-001 like its a big deal. Theres nothing special about it. Except the name.

[Fade]

Duece, I haven't used Sonar for long but from what I've played around with, it can't be beat. I can't say from experience that I've done this and that, but it's very flexible. Check this site:
http://www.cakewalknet.com/index.htm

mucka, I don't think Pro Tools will "magically" make a song sound better than if it was done in Sonar. Both programs sequencing tracks, what's so different with Pro Tools?

[BeatOff]

If everybody actually tried different methods then you wouldnt have people who just assume one thing is better than the other just because of hearsay. Everybody always talks about pro tools and assume its the only thing out there.

[themucka]

NO IF YOU THROW THEM INTO IT... IT WONT MAKE A DIFFERENCE....

BUT FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME WHO USE PROTOOLS ONLY 4 RECORDING AND MIXING IT CRUCIAL...

RECORD VOCALS ON SONAR THE RECORD VOACLS ON PRO TOOLS THERE GONNA BE A DIFFERENCE.. IF YOU DON'T THINK SO. OHH WELL THAT LIKE SAYING THERE NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TAPE AND DIGITAL... IF I HAD PEOPLE COME HERE WITH THERE MICS AND THERE PRE AMP... THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THE INTERFACE... AND PLUG INS... AND MY 2 HOURS MIX... DESRTOY EVERYTHING... THEY BEEN DOING 4 MONTHS...

BUT EVERY REAL STUDIO USES PRO TOOLS NOT SONAR.... SO THE CONVENIENCE FACTOR IS THERE PLUS THE POWER...

NOW 4 MAKING A BEAT I DON'T SUGGEST PRO TOOLS.... I DON'T SUGGEST SOFTWARE... I SUGGEST MPC.... MAKING A GHETTO 2 TRAK MIX... SHOW YOUR BEATS... GET THEM 2 TAKE YOU 2 A PRO STUDIO AND DROP THEM THERE....

MY BOY GATO... DOES THIS.... HE DID THE KRS-ONE SONG WITH PEEDO.. OF LUNAR EMPIRE..." HOW BAD YOU WANT IT.."
HE WOULD NOT HAVE GOT THAT SOUND IF HE RECORDED INTO SONAR RATHER THAN THE SSL

AND THAT SONG IS A CLASSIC.... ALL HE GOT IS MPC AND A KORG Z1

[vitaminman]

Hey,

"RECORD VOCALS ON SONAR THE RECORD VOACLS ON PRO TOOLS THERE GONNA BE A DIFFERENCE.. IF YOU DON'T THINK SO. OHH WELL THAT LIKE SAYING THERE NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TAPE AND DIGITAL"

The difference between analogue and digital recording has nothing to do with the difference between Sonar and Pro Tools: analogue and digital recording deals with different ways of capturing and storing audio; Pro Tools and Sonar are two different DIGITAL systems used to record and edit audio.

The only thing that would make a recording sound different between PT and Sonar are the cards used to capture the sound. I'm sure that we can all agree that the Digi001 is not the best card around, and we can agree that the Digi002 is not the best card either...because if it were the best card HANDS DOWN, then every studio on the planet would have one and every other card manufacturer would stop making cards altogether.

So, so far we have the PT guys liking it because:

1. Compatibility with 'real' studios.
2. Their plugins do more for you.
3. Dac likes it.

And the Sonar guys like Sonar because:

1. Sounds better than PT.
2. Don't have to buy extra plugs.
3. More audio and MIDI features.

Keep the list going!

Nick

[themucka]

IT FUNNY HOW PEOPLE CAN BE BLIND... OR JUS PLAIN DUMB

I KNOW TAPE AND DIGITAL ARE... DIFFERENT....
LIKE
PRO TOOLS... AND SONAR ARE DIFFERENT....

PRO TOOLS... IS MEANT 4 PRO'S.... WHO KNOW WHAT THERE DOING...
VITAMINMAN....


SONAR IS MEANT 4 ROOKIES... OR PEOPLE WHO TAKE THIS AS A HOBBY...
WHO DONT KNOW OR CAN'T AFFORD PRO TOOLS..

001 IS 4 PRACTICE... BANDS USE THAT SO THEY CAN TAKE IT 2 THE STUDIO... GET IDEAS AND RERECORD....

NO PRO WORKS ON 001.. ALONE OR 002... THOSE ARE 4 ROOKIES
I'M NOT A ROOKIE... NOR DO I TAKE THIS AS A HOBBY

SO ALL IN ALL..

PEOPLE USE PRO TOOLS....
1. CUZ THERE SERIOUS ABOUT THERE QUALITY....
2. IT'S THE INDUSTRY STANDARD.. BASICALLY...
3. AND IT JUS SOUNDS BETTA..

PEOPLE USE SONAR...
1, CUZ THEY DON'T HAVE HD OR TDM... OR THAT WHAT THEY LEARNED 1ST WITH
2. CUZ THEY BROKE...
3. CUZ THEY BROKE

[Shonsteez]

To tha sonar users:

What features do you like specifically that you find yourself often utilizing in sonar?
And if you got tha time maybe include some simple steps and how you do your thing...
Im personally looking to widen tha stereo field for one thing with this prgm. - I know this is possible from previous theads - this is another reason why i got sonar.
I want to achieve a more "fielded out mix" (i made that up obviously, but you get what i mean right?)....Like, for instance when you hear a snare drum crack and it sounds in front of you but at tha same time its like on tha side of you as well...and while all of this is happening tha snare somehow tends to not over power anything else in your mix....

Hopefully some more of you guys can chime in on this one?


Steeze

[themucka]

DUCE YOU CAN DO THIS BY SENDING THEM TO A STERO BUS 4 DRUMS..... HAVE IT PANNED SLIGHTY 2 THE LEFT... THE SNARE THA IS
THEN
JUS THROW AND L1 ULTRA OVER THE WHOLE BUS OF DRUMS BRING THEM UP.. AND IN FRONT... THE WAY I LIKE...
4 PT THAT IS

[BeatOff]

Originally posted by themucka
IT FUNNY HOW PEOPLE CAN BE BLIND... OR JUS PLAIN DUMB

I KNOW TAPE AND DIGITAL ARE... DIFFERENT....
LIKE
PRO TOOLS... AND SONAR ARE DIFFERENT....

PRO TOOLS... IS MEANT 4 PRO'S.... WHO KNOW WHAT THERE DOING...
VITAMINMAN....


SONAR IS MEANT 4 ROOKIES... OR PEOPLE WHO TAKE THIS AS A HOBBY...
WHO DONT KNOW OR CAN'T AFFORD PRO TOOLS..

001 IS 4 PRACTICE... BANDS USE THAT SO THEY CAN TAKE IT 2 THE STUDIO... GET IDEAS AND RERECORD....

NO PRO WORKS ON 001.. ALONE OR 002... THOSE ARE 4 ROOKIES
I'M NOT A ROOKIE... NOR DO I TAKE THIS AS A HOBBY

SO ALL IN ALL..

PEOPLE USE PRO TOOLS....
1. CUZ THERE SERIOUS ABOUT THERE QUALITY....
2. IT'S THE INDUSTRY STANDARD.. BASICALLY...
3. AND IT JUS SOUNDS BETTA..

PEOPLE USE SONAR...
1, CUZ THEY DON'T HAVE HD OR TDM... OR THAT WHAT THEY LEARNED 1ST WITH
2. CUZ THEY BROKE...
3. CUZ THEY BROKE

LOL I wonder if you actually think before some of the stuff you say. If "The Pro's" told you to eat a shit sandwhich you'd do it. You are like every brainwashed beat maker that takes a professional course. They always boast about These 4 things. MPC, Pro Tools, Triton and Macs. Then they battle some kid with a Cubase or sonar or something and get destroyed.

[bigdmakintrax]

Hey I also mentioned that protools usually doesn't stand alone in a real pro studio either, I use digi 001 and sonar and go to a real studio with TDM and certified protools engineers....but they always resort to running the shidd thru their analog old school equipment for mastering and yes....RE-recording it.....does this make any real sense? then I have gone to some top studios that refuse to use it simply because they keep their clientele and the labels keep their studio on the list for artist to go and get real work done....not to knock protools as I said I use it but I too have access to quite a few real studios in the DC area and they ain't shown me shidd that a seasoned pro can't do with analog...or a seasoned home studio pro can do......not to pick a bone but I can't agree with all that bs about why people use sonar and what the pros use.....don't let people fool you, most of the time they tell you to either bring your broadcast wave files in and then they run it through the computer, and feed to the mixing board that's where it leaves the protools realm and enters the analog realm.....not to say you can't do everything but I know better.....

[themucka]

@ beatoff i am a pro... not some rookie like you... you would neva squash me... no one you know could eva squash deal with it.... it you guys THAT are in your own world here... yall need 2 wake up.... LOL TOOK A PRO COURSE... I'M HOT CUZ IM HOT NOT CUZ SOME COURSE YOU DUCK...

i'm starting thinks this site is 4 halfass hataz.. who DON'T want see the truth...

"OGHH I REMBER BEAT OFF... YOU THE ONE WHO SWEAR PROS ARE FOOLS...


@bigmakintrax.... you must not be working with more than 24 tracks....
i drop 2 tape... when in a real studio and then dump back pro tools....

i have neva had a finished song with under 24... tracks... and with tape is 22...
i neva use the 1st and last track...

we always got 2 go with pro tools... and mix with the SSL AND PRO CONTROL...
i'm sorry sonar got nothing that gonna beat a dbx 120 subharmonizer.. or tube tech... or a 480l.... i can go on and on...

sonar is for pre production... the most and getting a good ruff dradt of a mix...
pro tools...nuendo.... logic... and ssl/neve/lagacy/ sony oxfords... are what any pro gonna use...

if anything a d8b..... with tascam 24... then they get dumped back 2 pro tools...

but hey i don't care yall do you.....

i repeat... i have neva seen a engineer worth his salt... trade up pro tools 4 sonar... jus wont happen....

AND I'M NOT HATING ON SONAR.....

BUT ANY REAL PRO ENGINEER WHO HAS A BRAIN WILL TELL... YOU CAN'T COMPARE
SONAR 2 PRO TOOLS...
ONLY FOOLS WOULD... SIMPLE AS THAT....

IS SONAR THE MORE REASONABLE CHOICE FOR SOMEONE STARTING OUT....
BUT I WOULD HAVE NO CLIENTEL... IF I TOLD MY PEEP NO MORE PRO TOOLS IT'S SONAR.... THEY LAUGH AT ME....

[Shonsteez]

Alright, Alright...

I think its quite clear that tha mucka isnt a sonar hater - if anything hes added more info to this thread than alot of others on at least stuff that is helpfull for what im looking for.
thanks again Muck for tha comment on how you like to pan out your snare....thats tha kind of info im looking for in this thread.
If anyone else has other helpfull hints please add them anytime now.

Thanks

Mucka:

How do i do this with my exported wav track from reason?

When i go to load a project in sonar im like fucking baffled.LOL.....
If you jus go to open you can only open tha prgm's extensions, and if you go to new there is so many options and when you choose one its not very straight foward.
I clearly have more reading to do about how tha prgm works, but i figured i could cut tha chase ona few things like what you were talking about if you guys talked me through a few steps....

[BeatOff]

Quit bragging I"ve never even heard of you. You're not some big shot platinum producer you're an arrogant chicken head with Un Original beats. You even got a song trying to sing like pharell you fuckin biter. Stop acting like you went platinum because you sold a couple beats to some wack ass miami rappers. You took some engineering school and you think you are a know it all when you say the dumbest shit i've ever read on any site. I cant take you serious. For a "Professional" you sure do sound dumb as a rock. "Hataz this hataz that" is that the first defense bird headed gimps use.? "I'm a professional, You're an amature" LOL yeah aiight Big time producer.

[vitaminman]

Deuce,

You don't need PT to do any of that stuff, you can group tracks and use Waves plugins in any software, including Sonar.

You shouldn't have to export wav files from Reason with either PT or Sonar, both of the current versions support Rewire, which allows you run Reason as a plugin.

Mucka,

No one is arguing that PT is a good system...if it were a bad system, people wouldn't be using it.

But you still haven't explained why Pro Tools is inherently better than any other system out there. We all know that a lot of studios use it, I don't think that anyone will dispute this. What many people are interested in (including myself) are the features of the software that make it better than Sonar.

If the coin were flipped and studios used Sonar instead of PT, would you be using Sonar instead?

So far you've mentioned a lot of hardware which big studios use, like big consoles and processors, but these have nothing to do with PT. And it seems that when this stuff is used in conjunction with PT, it is used only as a glorified tape recorder. People have been able to dump audio back and forth between tape and a computer with tons of programs for a long time now, it's nothing complicated.

Of course an engineer won't trade up his PT system for something like Sonar! If he's invested thousands of dollars and hours in a system which he likes and gets good results with, why should he take a loss in his investment? I've invested lots of hours and thousands dollars into my Cubase system, I wouldn't trade it for anything else either!

I don't understand the argument that people use systems based on their price to achieve professional results: both Nuendo and Logic are relatively cheap compared to PT (around $1000 or less), and they offer the benefit of allowing people to use the audio interface of their choice. If people aren't using PT 'cuz they broke', shouldn't this include the Logic and Nuendo users?

You're mistaken if you believe that pro's use only Pro Tools, you only have to go to any website of any manufacturer to see the list of artists and producers who use programs like Cubase and Sonar (among others). And these aren't little guys with a hit or two; we're talking about guys who have been making records longer than we've been alive.

Everyone:

What makes a 'pro' or a 'rookie'? The software they use, or the music they make?

Take care,

Nick

[Shonsteez]

All good points Vitamin...
And thanks for pointing out that its capable of being used with tha rewire gig...Im gonna try this out after class tomarrow evening...Ill add to tha thread how it goes down.



Steeze

[Shonsteez]

Ok i jus tried it and rewire iz actually quite easy to set up and self explanitory considering i didnt read anything before i set it up...
Though i did have one noticable problem:( - - - - - -I kept getting a really annoying clipping or popping/crackling while streaming tha track nsync with sonar. Does thatmaybe mean my CPU iz gettin overheated or some shiznit?

[vitaminman]

Hey,

My guess would be that maybe the buffers in your soundcard are too low and the card is not capable of keeping up with all the information being passed to it at that speed. You could try increasing the buffer size...the disadvantage of this is that latency will increase.

Take care,

Nick

[Fade]

themucka, what's got people heated on this topic is not because you're saying that Pro Tools is better, but because you're saying that it's your opinion so it MUST be the truth. No one else's opinions matter. Whatever themucka says is what everyone should know because themucka's words are the only true words on this planet.

Basically, you're coming across arrogant and that's what pissing people off. Saying you're a pro and we're all rookies, that's a big thing to say! I'm not going to argue with you about both PT and Sonar but just lay off the whole ego trip please. Just because you record in "pro" studios and use all sorts of "pro" gear doesn't mean that's what everyone else on here should do.

[themucka]

i'm sorry if i offended anybody.... but i was refereing 2 beat off.. with that comment...(pro n rookie) sorry i did not specify...

@vitamin... here are the resons people use PRO TOOLS... OVER ANYBODY ELSE
i'm not a spec guy... ima hands on person... so i prooly wont be as elaborate as you would like...

THIS IS FOR REAL PRO TOOLS USER... NOT 001- 002

1.but. the 1st reason... no latency...... none...
2.farm cards.. takes all the work off your cpu.... non pro tools user... can'T use as many strong quality plug-ins... TPRO TOOLSQUALITY IS TIGHTER... MORE REAL...
TRY RUNNING 16 RENAINCE COMPRESSOR... WITH AN ALTIVERB.. AND 5 RENAICE RVB... AND HAVE EVERYTHING PLAYBACK SMOOTH... WONT HAPPEN WITH SONAR...
4... THE INTERFACE.... THERE STAND ALONE... 888... TAKES OUT... ANY SOUNDCARD UNDER 1500... PLUS THERE HIGHEER END ONES THAT KILL THE 888
5.AGAIN..FARM CARDS... THE MORE YOU HAVE THE MORE PLUG-INS YOU CAN RUN.. THE AUDIO YOU CAN RECORD AND HAVE PLAYBACK... NOW GRANTED YOU ONLY GET 32 2 STAART OFF... BUT I HAVE RATHER HAVE 32 TRACKS CAPTURED RIGHT .. THAN 32 CAPTURED THIN...( I CURRENTLY HAVE 3) AND THATS ALL U NEED...
I GET 44 TRACKS ALL THE TIME RUN SMOOTH WITH TONS OF PLUG INS AN NO PROPNBLEMS
6.IT WORKS WITH MACS PERFECTLY... AND IN MY OPINION.... MACS DON'T CRASH LIKE TH PC PROGRAMS DO...
7. IT'S EASY...
8. YOU CAN RUN REASON OR LOGIC.... SO IF YOU WANT EXTRA MIDI FEATURES USE THEM....

PRO TOOLS IS MEANT 4 RECORDING AND MIXING.... NOT MAKING BEATS...

I GET FRUSTRATED CUZ... CUZ GUYS LIKE VITAMINMAN... AIN'T HELPING PEOPLE MUCH HERE... JUS A SMART COMMENT... THEN HE DROPS THE INFO...
DONT GET ME WRONG VITAMINMAN.. IS THE MOST HELPFUL HERE..
BUT THE REST... JUS FOLLOW... WHAT THE NEXT MAN SAY...
I'M SPEAKINGFROM EXPERIENCE.. NOT.. MY ASS...
AS I KNOW ...VITA...IS SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE..
BUT BEATOFF WAS SPEAKING OUT HIS ASS

@VITAMINMAN.. HOW DOES SONAR OUTSHINE PRO TOOLS... BESIDES MIDI...
CUZ ANY PRO.. WILL TELL YOU MIDI ISN'T PTOOL STRONG POINT... BUT IT'S IS GETTING BETTA...

AND I PERSONALLY KNOW THAT MY REASON SOUNDS A LITTLE TIGHTER COMING FROM MY 888... THAN MY OL LAPTOP SOUNDCARD...

[Cold Truth]

mucka, vitaminman helps everyone on here! i cant count how many technical questions he has answered from everyone on this site. not everyone has had the education you have had, nor the money you have to get the things you have. vitaminman has solved so many problems its rediculous..... and all you do is tell people that they need an mpc and pro tools "because any pro will tell you...." and thats basically all you have done in this thread, until you finally gave a solid reason as to why pt was so much better; no one argued what you were saying, but you never said WHY until now.

guess what? most people are here to learn, and get info and get better. it is much more productive to share with people how to get the most out of what they HAVE then to tell them what they NEED to have. most of us have 9 to 5's, some of us have families, others are taking care of others in our households, i mean lets be realistic for a moment..... not all of us can use all our resources for this.

all i am saying is that with all your education you could (and have, not saying you dont) better help people by helping them get the most out of what they do have. all studio knowledge does not apply only to pro tools, and heres a question: how in the world did music ever get made before pro tools? i cant figure that one out.....

so.... given that midi is what the vast majority of us use, and need, and hardware is a bit too expensive (for anything that i use) and the fact that pro tools has fairly weak midi, and i got cubase sx (which is no slouch) and my soundcard and kontakt for less then what the digi 001 would have cost, cubase was a much better investment for me. cubase is more than sufficient to record live instruments and vocals, i know because i know 2 bands that recently recorded entire albums with it and they sound excellent. so why we go out and spend thousands we dont have on equipment thats weak point is the one element that is vital for most of us? that just isnt practical.

[themucka]

@ TRUTH TOLD.... I'M ALWAYS GLAD 2 SHARE REC./ MIXING TIPS... POST A THREAD I'LL REPLY... BUT MOST OF THE STUFF HERE... FL/CUBE/SONAR/REASON/COOL EDIT/.. THINGS I DON'T USE ON A DAILY BASIS OR NEVA... EXECPT REASON... BUT I USE FOR SOUNDS NOT 4 SEQUENCING...

I KNOW VITAMINMAN... IS HELPFUL...
SO IS FADE... HE MORE 2 THE POINT MY STYLE..

"AND I DON'T JUS SAY BUY AN MPC AN PRO TOOLS"...CMON.. THATS RIDICOULUS

SERIOUS PEOPLE WILL ASK YOU IS THIS A HOBBY OR IS THIS A BUISNESS...
THIS IS A BUISNESS WITH ME.... I'M PASSED HOBBY... I EAT SLEEP AND BREATHE THIS... I QUIT ALL THE DEALING I DID... ALL THE PARTYING AT CLUBS... ALL THE STUPID SHIT... AND DEDICATED MY LIFE TOWARD THIS... MUSIC ..AN HIP HOP

THIS AIN'T A HOBBY 4 ME.... SO YEAH... AN MPC.. ASR... SP12000.. ARE LOGICAL TOOLS... IT COST MONEY 2 MAKE MONEY....

I USE AN MOC2000XL... JUS BOUGHT 3000 2 WEEKS AGO... AND HAVE HAD AN ASR 4 A MONTH NOW... MY FRIEND LENT ME IT,,,

PRO TOOLS... IS 4 ME... I HAVE LOGIC... BUT THATS SHIT 2 CONFUSING...

I HONESTLY FEELL.. FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART.... THAT HARDWARE WILL ALWAYS BE BETTA THAN SOFTWARE 4 HIP HOP... WHEN IT COMES 2 SEQUENCING...
THATS MY OPINION.... FROM MY EXPERIENCE.. FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD ON HERE...2 OTHERS MUSIC. IVE HEARD... AND MY OWN EXPERIMENTS.. THATS JUS HOW I FEEL SO WHEN I EXPRESS THAT I'M DOING 4 YALL.. SO YALL CAN STEP YA GAME UP

[BeatOff]

^^^Thats cool thats your opinion. Most of my beefs with you came from you calling me amature because I use software and you're view was the only view. The last thing i wanna do is come on here and argue with everybody.

[Shonsteez]

Even though this doesnt completely relate to my intial topic - i just wanted to add that from reading everybodies comments back and forth about tha hardware vs software thing - im starting to think one important thing about tha argument:

1. Both are clearly capable of creating a high quality product with tha same complexity. Both will obviously have to also go to another guy who will do tha final mix(mastering)....Regardless of how good tha submix comes out...Not saying you cant get a really good near-finished-product, but my point is that both ways still will need that final professional touch which is also clearly applicable in both situations - whether you use hardware or software.
a)...Basically this comes down to preference. Tha older traditional ways of producing hiphop will still hold firm for prob. eternity, but regardless there are also newer ways to do tha same thing now.
b)...Tha alpha side producers - so to speak, will always dig tha way they have to beat on tha velocity sensitve pad of there mpc and keep most of their audio analogue and use other external hardwares to achieve tha traditional sound of hiphop.
c)...Tha beta side producers - so to speak, will most likely always dig tha newer-slightly-more complex ways of making hiphop on their pc's. This group usaully has to do a reasonable amount of research on tha softwares that are being used to fully utilize their prgm's - this really is quite tha same with hardwares, except theres seems to be a tendency to not need as much constant prep-time to use a hardware device...this isnt specifically true in every case.

I was really jus trying to point out that they both are two diff. worlds and they can be intertwined but they will most likely always stay on one side or tha other - hence making two completely diff. sub-catagories to create music through.

*I think we all need to realize though that a computer iz clearly capable of making tha same quality or maybe even higher as an external setup if not now - def. in tha near future - and it will also be more affordable and easier to get a hold of....thats jus tha way technology works.



Steeze

[BeatOff]

I think it comes down to hardware producers paying thousands for gear and upset that you can buy software for 1/10th the cost most of the time. Just becuase things cost alot doesnt mean its better also. When computers first came out shit with 2 megs of ram was 4000 thousand dollars. Hardware is marked up in price. It shouldnt cost that much. Its all about the soundcards and what you decide to use with software. You can re-create anything made on hardware with software and achieve the exact same sound if you want.

[God]

Dear TheMucka:

What version of ProTools HD do you use?

Sincerely,
God

[themucka]

@duceface... u missing the point... pro tools is all u need...... ima post a song i nthe next showcase... alll pro tools... plug-ins... all pro tools... profesionally mixed..

if i want i turn out pro ish at my house... i'm saying big studios use pro tools... with the ssl...(cuz they have the best of both worlds why not) cuz you got ssl eq... the routing possibities.. and plus most off the outboard gear is in the patchaby.... so they run and out out of pro tools.... into the ssl and use some outboard gear... back 2 the ssl..

@beatoff no ones mad... they cheaper programs are limited... they will not turn out that tru pro sound... quality... but a good songs a good song.. so if it's recorded in sonar.. or digital performer... it don't matter the song 1st has 2 be good...

pro tools allows you 2 get as close as possible 2 the pro sounds.. and it gives alot of mixing power 4 the song your working on......

it's pro tools... cuz you need certain things 2 make it that....
1.the program
2.the interface...888/882... theres HD... thers higher end interfaces that are 5gs for 8ins and 8outs...
3. you need a dsp farm card...

all these thing combined make a officail pro tools rig...

you can jus download sonar off *****.. and have sonar...

you can have a official PT SETUP WITH OUT THE FOLLOWING I DESCRIBED...

I HAVE USED EVERYTHING U GUYS HAVE THE DIFFERENCE IS I KEPT UPGRADING... MONEY WAS NOT A FACTOR 4 ME...

@GOD
I USE 6.1 TDM WITH AN 888. AND THREE FARM CARDS... I HAVE A FOURTH BUT I'M GETTING AN EXPANSOIN CHASIS... AND PUTTING THEM IN THERE...

TRITON/ROLANDXV3080/MOTIF/MO PHAT/SUPA NOVA 11/JUNO 106/ JX-3PMICRO KORG..

NUEMAN U87
AVALOM737sp

mackie 32/8... but only 20 channels and 6busses work

technics 12000 vestax mixer

roland amplifeid spkr.. there 4years old... or three...

[BeatOff]

How are cheaper programs limited exactly? My boy can master a song in Cubase Sx and that shit will sound better than Cd's done in a big 800,000 Dollar studio. Have you heard that ludacris word of mouth cd? The quality sucks. It was done on pro tools. Cubase is what 700$? What is the "Pro Sound" you keep talking about? There is no special sound that comes out of pro tools. If the engineer sucks he sucks. Its about the person. If somebody cant engineer right then the track will sound shitty no matter what he's on. If you know sound and what you're doing you can run a track through cool edit and have it sounding "Pro".

[themucka]

@BEAT OFF
1st off cds arn't master an a normal recording facilities...
there taken 2 people like FULLER SOUND... PRO WHO MASTER SONGS...
2 SONGS... WITH BOTH HAVING CLEAN , DIRTY , INSTRO... $350
THERES MORE 2 MASTERING THAN TURNING UP THE VOLUME

AND SPEAKING OFF LUDA. HE JUS RECORDED HIS ALBUM AT BOGART STUDIOS IN MIAMI... CHECK THE CREDITS ON HIS NEW ALBUM... AND THAT SHIT BLAZING..
BOB ROSA... DID A COUPLE MIXES ON THAT ALBUM .. PLEASE LEARN WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT PLEASE...

IT'S NOT JUS PRO TOOLS YOU FOOL.... PAY ATTENTION...... LAST TIME I'M DONE WITH THIS THREAD..

PRO TOOLS RECORD YOUR MUSIC AT THE BEST QUALITY POSSIBLE....
THE PLUG-INS AND THEW POWER IT PROVIDES IS UNMATCHED BY ALL....
NEXT... BECUASE OF IT'S RELIABILTY... IT'S EASE 2 SYNC.. 2 THE SSL MAKE IT A TOP CHOICE 4 PRO STUDIOS...

WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP...

NO BRAND NEW FACILITIE WILL OFFER SONAR INSTEAD OF PRO TOOLS... IT JUS WONT HAPPEN... NOT EVEN LOGIC....

ANY 100,000 DOLLARS STUDIOS THAT OFFERS THAT WILL GO BROKE...

AND HERE ARE A FEW OF THE PRO TOOL USER
DRE... JD...NEPTUNES...TIM... SCOTT STORCH KANYE WEST... DAVID BANNER.. JUST BLAZE...PUFFY ... MARIO WINANS...BINK... JUS A FEW...

THAT HOW THEY GET THERE SOUND... RECORDING INTO PT... USING THE SSL
AND OUTBOARD GEAR... AND TAPE FOR WARMING...
AND PLUS IT BEING DONE RIGHT FROM THE BEGINING...
IF U RAP WACK IT'S GONNA SOUND WACK.. SAME 4 SINGING

SOMETIMES IT'S ALL PRO TOOLS.. CUZ THE TRACK IS HOT AND SOUND GOOD ALREADY.. JUS NEED THE EAR 2 FIX CERTAIN THINGS...

I'M DONE... STAY WITH IGNORANCE... YOU WILL NEVA GET THAT DOPE SOUND YOU CRAVE

[Shonsteez]

Muck - i dont disagree with you that protools is good for near professional quality, I have paid close attention to tha credits in my music too and have noticed many people use it also. For example El-P of tha Def JUx crew used tha digi 001 for his first solo release, and i will hands down say it sounded great. But...I also think it could have still sounded better in some respects even though it was really quite perfect in my opinion, when i comapre it to say some higher money driven shit like tha backstreet boys....And noooo...Im not a fan or listen to that shit - im purely making a simple point that in comparison - i dont find a HUGE difference between a PROTOOLS track versus a SONAR track when your lookin at big money type shit like that.

[BeatOff]

For one why are you insulting me. #2 Why do you type in all caps and make no sense with what you type. You type like you were dropped on your head at age 3 and never recovered. I SAID WORD OF MOUTH NOT CHICKEN AND BEER YOU NON READIN GIMP.

I havent even heard his new album so why dont you learn how to read before you insult me you cross eyed dweeb. I dont give a fuck who uses pro tools you clone. Why do you keep going back to what artists use what equiptment. You trying to be like them or something? You too scared to venture off on your own, Or do you read production magazines and buy all their equiptment so you can sound like them.

This is a hopeless debate, you cant do anything but result to insults and start suckin the dicks of people you idolize. You're the most ignorant arrogant dumb fuckin geek on this site. Period. You cant even make sense when you type. Let alone know what you're talking about. Thats on another level of stupidity. For a professional you claim to be the least you could do is learn how to link to your site. Idiot.

[themucka]

@DUCE..001 AND 0002.. ARE WEAK AND ARE NOTHING LIKE TDM OR HD....

001 IS THIN.. I HATE... THE AUDIO CARD IS NOT 2 TIGHT...
I USE TDM... THERES A BIG DIFFERENCE QUALITY WISE...

001 THIN...

AND KNOW DIFFERENCE... LOOK AT A NEPTUNES "SLAVE" ALL ON PRO TOOLS... AND ANY SONAR SONG HERE... CMON DUCE...

MM 8MILE TRACK SONG PT...

WHEN I SAY PRO TOOLS.. I DON'T MEAN 001 /002... I MEAN TDM OR HD

TDM / HD ARE HIGH END GEAR.... 001/002... WERE MEANT FOR LOW LEVEL CONSUMERS WHO CAN'T AFFORD THE REAL DEAL SET UP

[God]

Personally,

I think the advantage that a ProTools HD setup with Farmcards has over a common SONAR w/PC setup is the stability that the HD setup provides when recording over and over live, and the advantage of instant Farmcard DSP power.

For example, I find an HD setup much more reliable if I am recording an artist or band, it is far more stable than SONAR in long sessions. That isn't to diminish SONAR, which is a great piece of software utilising native elements of a PC for its power, rather than Farmcards (which are great._

Farmcards, are a huge, albeit expensive advantage, and are what I like about an HD setup. I don't believe in the insanely high sample rate of 192kHz, but many use that as a benchmark, or a reason for argument.

Honestly, many people I know have bought into a cycle of planned obsolescence that Digidesign brings, myself included, and among peers that all must have the latest technologies, I have to keep up and know how to use what most of the studios I work in have. A lot of this investment costs a lot of money, and many people, may not have money. From the looks of this forum, many don't, and SONAR offers a great alternative.

Honestly, I believe, with enough time, that I could make equally good recordings on HD and CEP or SONAR if I put enough effort into it and have the right outboard gear and mics.

I think that high quality converters are what matter a lot, and a lot of people don't talk about it.

Sincerely,
God

[Shonsteez]

Oh sorry Muck i forgot you were talking about tha HD or tha TDM...Im really not that familiar with those ones......Cuz like either you said or someone else - its basically out of my range with tha money factor.

Im not against ProTools though...Dont think im anti-protools cuz i cant be until i have one for myself and it doesnt work out tha way i planned...

If anything i wish i had tha opprtunities that you do right now so that i could utilize my talents to a higher bitter. I would love to have a studio for my MC's and a nice room to drink a hieni and drop a beat in that didnt look my sleeping quarters...and all those toys and goodies that you got! Man Im not agianst any of that stuff, but i do think if i had it would still not put it past myself that i could make some descent sounds with some good converters/mics/ etc....

[themucka]

Originally posted by God
Personally,

I think the advantage that a ProTools HD setup with Farmcards has over a common SONAR w/PC setup is the stability that the HD setup provides when recording over and over live, and the advantage of instant Farmcard DSP power.

For example, I find an HD setup much more reliable if I am recording an artist or band, it is far more stable than SONAR in long sessions. That isn't to diminish SONAR, which is a great piece of software utilising native elements of a PC for its power, rather than Farmcards (which are great._

Farmcards, are a huge, albeit expensive advantage, and are what I like about an HD setup. I don't believe in the insanely high sample rate of 192kHz, but many use that as a benchmark, or a reason for argument.

Honestly, many people I know have bought into a cycle of planned obsolescence that Digidesign brings, myself included, and among peers that all must have the latest technologies, I have to keep up and know how to use what most of the studios I work in have. A lot of this investment costs a lot of money, and many people, may not have money. From the looks of this forum, many don't, and SONAR offers a great alternative.

Honestly, I believe, with enough time, that I could make equally good recordings on HD and CEP or SONAR if I put enough effort into it and have the right outboard gear and mics.

I think that high quality converters are what matter a lot, and a lot of people don't talk about it.

Sincerely,
God

THATS THE SMARTEST THING I HEARD FROM SOMEONE HERE...
GLAD 2 KNOW THAT U KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT...
THANK YOU FRO YOUR COMMENTS..

[Some Guy]

Duece Listen, You can do anything in Sonar that you can in PT. And you'll be much happier working with Reason in Sonar than you would in PT. I mean in sonar it takes 3 steps to rewire. Open song, go to the DXi rack, choose Rewire device, it even opens Reason for you its not hard.

Even if you need some DSP power like the HD systems just get a UAD-1 and Sonar. Its the same power as one farm card for 1/10th the cost. Each farm card is like $3000. Stop worrying about software, its all about the engineering skills. Try to learn as much about engineering as you can. People get PT set ups for bragging rights dont be fooled. I've won engineering contests at school using Cool Edit, when the rest of the class was using Pro Tools. So just get the demo's and use what you want. Payce.

[BeatOff]

Originally posted by Some Guy
Duece Listen, You can do anything in Sonar that you can in PT. And you'll be much happier working with Reason in Sonar than you would in PT. I mean in sonar it takes 3 steps to rewire. Open song, go to the DXi rack, choose Rewire device, it even opens Reason for you its not hard.

Even if you need some DSP power like the HD systems just get a UAD-1 and Sonar. Its the same power as one farm card for 1/10th the cost. Each farm card is like $3000. Stop worrying about software, its all about the engineering skills. Try to learn as much about engineering as you can. People get PT set ups for bragging rights dont be fooled. I've won engineering contests at school using Cool Edit, when the rest of the class was using Pro Tools. So just get the demo's and use what you want. Payce.

You're lying Pro Tools is God. Its for pro sounds. If its not pro tools you're an amature.

[Fade]

Nobody brought up the fact (except God) that maybe why Pro Tools is so popular in major studios is because of the "well they're using it, so we should too" mentality. Like I said, I'm not knocking PT, but I'm sure if I went to a pro studio and recorded all my tracks with Sonar then it would sound "professional". Hell, I know lots of studios that DON'T have PT, and they're "pro studios".

BTW mucka, I thought you said you were finished with this thread? ;) j/p

[themucka]

YOU GUYS CONTINUE 2 BE BLIND.... MO POWA 2 YOU...

@FADE... I'M SORRY YOU BELIEVE THAT...
BUT IF YOU WANT THAT SOUND YOU GOT 2 GO WITH WHAT THEY USED 2 GET THAT SOUND.. I DON'T KNOW WHEN BIGTIME ARTIST THAT USES SONAR 2 REC/MIX THERE WHOLE PROJECT.. SORRY..

I DO KNOW PEOPLE WHO DO IT ALL PRO TOOLS..
THEY USE PRO TOOLS 4 REASON "G.O.D" POINTED OUT AND OTHERS...

WHY DON'T YOU GUYS JUS SAY I DON'T HAVE THE MONEY FOR A MIX PLUS SYSTEM OR HD... AND YOUR SATIFIED WITH THE SOUND YOU GET ON SONAR.. OR CUBASE..

HOW MANY OF YOU TALKING SHIT ABOUT PRO TOOLS ACTUALLY HAVE IT...
NONE.. MAYBE GOD... BUT IT SEEM LIKE HE'S AN ENGIMEER WHO USES IT..

I OWN IT... I HERE YALL MUSIC AND AM TELLING YOU THERE IS A DIFFERENCE
TRUST ME... IF U DON'T BELIEVE THATS YOUR BAD...
BUT ASK ANY PRO STUDIO... HIT FACTORY... BOGART.. BATTERY SOUNDLAB...
PRO TOOLS IS A MUST... IT JUS 2 RAW NOT 2 HAVE IF U CAN AFFORD IT...

WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP

HEY YOU GUYS USE SONAR MO POWA 2 YOU... GOOD LUCK

[Shonsteez]

Hey someguy...What do you have your buffer set to?
Im having some wack troubles with streaming together using rewire...It works but it keeps giving me terrible popping/feedback/slight latency problems........Did this ever happen to you?
My computer has never had too many problems in tha supporting various demanding softwares route, but i do need a new soundcard - thats for sure....its not totally bad for stock though?...Anyways, do i jus need a new sound card or are there some specific adjustments i can make to make everything sound good?



Steeze

[Some Guy]

Whoa stock soundcard? Thats your first mistake. You need to go out and get a good sound card, it'll get your latency down and stop all that popping and shit. If you just need a nice card to get started with and you dont need a lot of inputs try a M-audio Audiophile which is less than $200. If you need some cool pre-amps built in then maybe a Omni-studio or something like that. I think Sonar3 might be able to use ASIO drivers, but Sonar2 uses MME? So just make sure you do some research and get the right one for you. I'm mostly on Cubase and other programs but I use Sonar now and then.

My buffer on my card is at 512 right now 11ms latency. I can drop it down lower but it puts more strain on your CPU so I just leave it at 512.

To make everything sound good you need to know how to use plug-ins EQ's/ compressors etc. And train your ears to hear trouble frequencies. The program itself will sound as good as your material. If you put a bad recording in there it'll sound like crap. No program will make your music sound good/bad automatically. Its all about knowing how to tweak the sound to get what you want. The music is in your head not inside the computer.

[Some Guy]

Originally posted by themucka



HOW MANY OF YOU TALKING SHIT ABOUT PRO TOOLS ACTUALLY HAVE IT...


I aint talkin shit about PT. Its a cool program, easy to learn and does the job. But theres a lot of diffrent options out there I'm not trying to use something just cuz all the big dawgs use it. Its like saying you have to have a Mercedez but BMW's, Lexus, Infinity all suck. It dont make sense. I doubt you really know the advantages of a PT system cuz if you did you would realize that the gap between PT and other apps is closing fast.

Do you even know how to use all that equipment you supposedly have? Or do you just get what all the big studio's have hoping your stuff will sound the same. Or do you just get equipment so you can try to brag about it. 4 farm cards? I'm not impressed man your music sounds like you're makin it on FL. Except you spent what 12 g's on those. Not really my style.

Oh and since you're talking so much shit about SONAR, have actually used it? Sonar has acid style looping, full PDC on inserts, sends and busses with DXi effects, more midi options, cal programing language to make your own macro key commands, and its a lot less than PT, just to name a few advantages.

[themucka]

THE 2 SONGS I POSTED HERE WERN'T RECORD AT MY STUDIO... THEY WERE BEATS I SENT.. SO THEY CAN RECORD THERE WAY...

TRUST ME... I DON'T NEED 2 SHOW OFF...
ANYTIME YOU WANT ME 2 EMNARESS YOU BRING IT... I ANSWER QUICK AND FAST ..

WHATS THIS JEALOUSY I GET WHAT OTHERE GOT.. NO NO NO

ALL I EQUIPMENT I BUY I TEST IF I DON'T LIKE IT OR SE MEE USING ALOT... I RETURN IT... ALLL THE QUIPMENT I KNOW IN AND OUT..

AND IF YOU THINK IMA PUT ANYTHING I DO THATS REMOTELY HOT... YOUR MISTAKEN.... BIGTIME... THESE ARE ALBUM FILLERE...

I'M OFFICIALLY... DONE,,,
THISS IS THE TRUTH I MAKE 2,500 A BEAT.. SOON 2 MAKE 25,000
WHAT YOU MAKE...

AND PART OF THAT IS MY SET UP... I'LL GO TO ANY STUDIO AND SHINE ANYONE ON THEY EQUIPMENT...

THROW ME ANY SAMPLE AND SEE WHAT YOU DO WITH IT AND I FO WITH IT...
THROW ME KEWYBOARD SEE WHAT YOU DO WITH IT AND I DO WITH IT...

FACT IS I MAKE MONEY AT WHAT I DO AND I'M HERE 2 HELP
I AM A PRO... NOT SEEDED NMBR 1... NO NOT YET...
BUT IF YOU THINK I'M ARROGANT... OR BIAS...
DOG I DON'T LISTEN 2 RADIO.. I DON'T READ INTERVIEWS...
I DO ME... NOBODY INFLUENCES... ME...

PEACE... YOU GUYS CAN DO YOU NOW

[Some Guy]

Dawg I didnt say you're tracks were bad. I just sayd they could have been made on FL or any other piece of software.

You must be making some type of money to be wasting thousands on that equip.

[BeatOff]

Anybody that will pay you 2500 let alone 25 thousand for a beat is on crack. Some guy would eat you alive with beats, thats a fact.

[Cold Truth]

um.... its just getting out of hand now. why dont you just leave it as is? mucka really aint provoking no one.... why dont you just battle him beat off? you two are always going at it.

otherwise you should just leave it alone from this point on, because it is useless.

[BeatOff]

Originally posted by Truth Told
um.... its just getting out of hand now. why dont you just leave it as is? mucka really aint provoking no one.... why dont you just battle him beat off? you two are always going at it.

otherwise you should just leave it alone from this point on, because it is useless.

Whats the point of a battle on here? So all his friends and him can say I suck. No matter how dope I come thats the end result out of spite. I posted a file for guevara it didnt solve anything. Its pointless and stupid. I'm not here to impress anybody with beats I came here because I thought it was a good site. This clown started all this shit with the name calling and dumb ass posts. I tried to squash it. But he had to come back calling me a fool and saying more 3rd grade grammar non sense that I can barely read.

I dont come on here braggin about how much I make from beats or how everybody is an amature if they dont use this or that. Everything he posts is provoking. I go to miami every damn year and I never heard of this cat. The way he talks would make you think he's fuckin dre or somebody.

[Fade]

Yeah the thread's gone crazy! We could go back and forth with mucka for ages but it won't solve anything. We all need to get back to the original questions that were asked at the beginning (but then again, it will start another debate). So let's lay off the name calling, and back and forth nonsense with each other.

[themucka]

@ beat off

and i don't call anybody amatures... i call you an amature theres a difference...
you were talking trash... and did even have input u came at me here...
i heard your music... it's the truth...

2500 is chump change.... my mans was selling beats for 8500 b4 they linked with terror squad... now he slangs 4 25gs and up....

an no rich boy here was on my own since 16.... been living on my own since 16...
put myown self thru college....

tighten up... you'll see me on that screen or that mag u love so much.. soon..

[BeatOff]

Where Did you hear my music, my point proovin you're making up shit to make your argument stronger. I posted one link to a beat on here.

[Some Guy]

Originally posted by Fade
Yeah the thread's gone crazy! We could go back and forth with mucka for ages but it won't solve anything. We all need to get back to the original questions that were asked at the beginning (but then again, it will start another debate). So let's lay off the name calling, and back and forth nonsense with each other.

I think we should keep the thread going, its pretty entretaining :laugh: . I thought I stuck to the original topic pretty well.

Hay Beat off, dont you have hella family in Miami? Maybe you and the mucka can hook up and collab on a track. :D

[vitaminman]

Hey,

Now we're getting some real answers!

According to God and mucka, a fully decked out PT rig is better than a computer running Sonar for the following reasons:

1. PT has farm cards, which for those of you who don't know, are cards which have fancy DSP chips on them dedicated to running effects and softsynths. Instead of having a native system which uses the Pentium (or whatever chip the Mac uses nowadays) doing the work, the farm card does the work for them, allowing the computer to dedicate itself to managing the system instead of doing the heavy number crunching.

The farm cards are sort of open ended; any software manufacturer who wants to write plugs to run on these cards can do so; all they would have to do is get the API or instruction set (or whatever it is you need to write hardware-specific software) from Digidesign, follow their rules, and make software which both PT and the cards can understand.

Because of hardware and complete integration, a full PT rig offers near-zero latency (I'll argue that there is ALWAYS latency, even in hardware synths, but not enough that we can tell...). And the more hardware you add to your system, the more plugs, synths and tracks you can run.

2. The hardware interfaces that Digidesign manufacture sound better than a lot of third-party cards. God feels that this is a critical element in a system which isn't discussed enough; Mucka feels that the 888 interface sounds better than laptop soundcards, and to approach the quality of the Digi cards you have to spend around $1500.

3. It runs well on Macintosh computers.

4. It's more stable than a native system for long recording sessions.

5. You can run 16 instances of Rennaisance Compressor and 5 instances of Rennaisance Reverb (Waves) and an instance of Altiverb (audioease) and have everything playback smoothly.

6. It's easy to use.


Now for Sonar:

1. Much better MIDI implementation.

2. Much cheaper, and you can buy third party Powered Plugins and TC Electronics PowerCore

3. Acid style looping, CAL programming, DXi support.

I think God said it best:

"Honestly, I believe, with enough time, that I could make equally good recordings on HD and CEP or SONAR if I put enough effort into it and have the right outboard gear and mics."

And this seems to be a common thread amongst people who work in any big studio: they take advantage of a lot of the high-end hardware at their disposal in conjunction with Pro Tools.

The high end converters are not exclusive to Digidesign hardware: if you read some of the trade magazines, names like Apogee, MOTU, RME and Swissonic appear all over the place, you can run these with just about any software (including both Pro Tools and Sonar) provided that you have the right card in your computer.

All of the high-end plugins mentioned in these posts will run on both Pro Tools and Sonar. Of course there are some which will run only in PT, and there are some which will not.

A disadvantage that Sonar or any other native software runs against is that it is dependent on the host CPU, which means that it probably won't be able to run 16 compressors, a convolution reverb, and a 'normal' reverb along-side 30+ tracks of audio.

Based on what everyone has said here in the past few posts, I still feel that Pro Tools itself is not needed to make a professional sounding track: it seems that the sound is a result of processing either done with either external hardware (which is software independent), or with plugins which run on all systems. And tape.

The advantage that PT has is that you can run more of them, provided that you have one of their high-end systems.

More two cents from the man who won't shut up (me!): the line between high-end PT systems and native systems is getting thinner and thinner. While PT was the only game in town for a long long time, Intel, AMD and Mac processors are readily approaching speeds which allow them to handle power-hungry plugins which at one time were exclusively found in the PT world... The fact that PT has those farm cards is what makes it so attractive, but why would anyone want to pay the prices they charge if someone could get an equivilant product on a home PC?

It seems that PT is playing a game of catch-up: for years it didn't have MIDI, this was added after sequencers like Cubase, Logic, Cakewalk, Vision (anyone remember this?) and Performer started adding audio and plugins as features; now PT supports Rewire, Digi cards have ASIO drivers to run with programs like Cubase and Nuendo, and they're bundling LE versions of softsynths originally designed to run on native systems that have been popular with a lot of people for years.

And now they're trying to tap into the home studio market because, I think, they see that people can make professional sounding tracks with other systems.


Take care,

Nick

[Copenhagen]

Hey, as long as people keep the debate in a mature manner, don't provoke or curse each other, and Mucka get's off caps lock, then I'm not one to close this thead...it has been very interesting so far.

[Craig Gantt]

Kinda confused now pro tools.....or software.:headscrat

[Architect]

Sonar is a very good recording sequencing package and is geared towards musicians and artists who don't have all the money to spend on a Pro Tools system but still want the high quality recordings.

There really shouldn't be all the debating they serve different purposes, Pro tools comes with dedicated hardware which takes the load off of the system bus and cpu to ensures low latency recording into your DAW and usually studios choose Mac over PC for certain reasons. Such as the typical PC user has to do a lot more configuration of their Digital Audio Workstation as opposed to a Mac environment were it's pretty much already preconfigured. You can talk to a lot of professional producers who will tell you that Pro Tools sounds thin and too digital and a lot of guys use it to record their music and come back out to a analog console to get the warmth before going to tape or whatever medium they choose. That's why Mucka explained to us about all the different tube compressors, preamps, etc that is used in conjunction with Pro Tools in professional environments, Pro Tools ain't coming out fat without the help of other processors. I work in a pro studio as an intern- so I'm not talking out of my ass I sit and help out in recording sessions all the time-i'm doing this to beef up my own skills and understanding of working in a professional studio.

Pro Tools is one of the best Audio Recording applications around that's it

Pro Tools can't compare with the midi recording capabilities of Logic or even Cakewalk Sonar point blank and yes Midi is very important to tons of pro and sem-pro musicians and producers.

Pro Tools alone doesn't make a recording "sound " professional and to be honest it hasn't always been so popular in professional studios but it seems to be getting that way and from the engineers I work with Pro Tools is easy to work with that's why it's so popular now.

Sonar is a bad ass program for us "little guys" because we have the best of many things in one program- loop based composition recording, dxi syths instruments to use rewire ability with Reason and other programs, the Mixing capabilities are even greater in Sonar 3 nice plugins and the midi options are very good-second only to Logic probably.

I wouldn't suggest everyone start using Pro Tools unless you have the money invested in it as it makes it easy for your clients when your working because they've recorded at another studios with Pro Tools, that's one of the reasons why Sonar wouldn't necessarily work in the pro studio is because it's not a standard and it doesn't need to be, for a producer all he needs is a tool to create his ideas very well after that sure use whatever is at your disposal to get the best recording if that means going to the Studio and using Pro Tools then fine, but remember you also need good engineers behind the sticks that can maximize the benefits of Pro Tools. They serve different purposes Sonar is a sequencer that also records midi along with a host of other things, Pro Tools records Audio point blank, so if you guys want to use to midi instruments and other stuff like that Pro Tools isn't the one. And don't be discouraged about cats saying Pro Tools is for "Real" production work because what does that really mean all the app is doing is Audio recording and Mixing nothing else!!! No Midi No, VST Instruments, No DXi, no native instruments type shit so yeah for final recording you can use Pro Tools but for Pre Production you won't find many producers
using it.

To answer the question posed in this thread in my opinion Sonar and Pro Tools can't even be compared they are too totally different animals- I would sum up and say Sonar for Pre Production creating your sounds ideas, they Pro Tools is there in a Pro Studio environment to capture your final recording and mix add tweak etc, not saying you can't do this in Sonar but some advantages in the Pro Studios in my view is the outboard gear used with Pro Tools and not necessarily Pro Tools itself. Let's compare Logic with Pro Tools or Nuendo which is on more equal grounds not Sonar.

[themucka]

WELL SAID.... THATS WHAT I WOULD HAVE CONVEYED... IF I NEW HOW 2 CHOOSE WORDS LIKE YOU...

PRO TOOLS... IS 4 AUDIO REC.. AND MIXING... IT'S NOT MEANT 4 PRODUCTION PURPOSES... UNLESS YOUR A ROCK BAND....

I MAKE MY BEATS OFF THE MPC... THEN REC INTO PRO TOOLS... DO A RUFF MIX... THEN I SAVE MY FILES ON CD... AND HARDDRIVE... AND TAKE IT 2 THE PRO STUDIO... 2 MIXDOWN VOCALS... AND THE BEAT... ON THE SSL...

THAT JUS ME.... NEXT SHOWCASE I WILL DROP AND EXAMPLE

[Architect]

Yes please do mucka that's what we need more of on this site, instead of all the shit talk lets show and prove more tips scientific explanations on why one is better than the other.

[vitaminman]

Architect,

Thanks for the great post, having well written information like this is very useful to people trying to make a decision.

I've read through your post very carefully, a few things mill over when you get a chance:

Here's something I don't understand. A few people who (I assume) use PT all the time in a professional environment ALL agree that PT alone doesn't get the sound they want; they use external processors to instead. No one is arguing that this topic, I think we can all agree on the merits of external hardware.

But if everyone is using external hardware to do a lot of the processing, doesn't that defeat the purpose of having the farm cards? And if it does defeat the farm cards, what makes PT any better than a native system?

-------

Would I be wrong in saying that you guys are using PT not because it's necessarily better or worse than any other system, but because it's the same system being used by the studios where you mix/work? To repeat an unanswered question from a previous post, would you be using Sonar instead if the studios were all running Sonar? A simple yes or no, please.

------

Why is the PT mentality that it is only used for recording and mixing? I talk to lots of guys who went to recording school, got their PT and Waves certifications, etc., but don't know about pretty basic editing tricks which the software is fully capable of doing. You ask them about it, their response is 'I dunno, PT is used for tracking and mixing'.... I feel like saying "Come ON!!! You've forked out 15+grand on school, and all you can do with this wonderful $50,000 system is frigging RECORD?!?!?"

-----------

As for preprodution and post production stuff...again, I see the division between these two getting smaller and smaller, and this is where PT can really shine over native systems.

If I had a full PT system at my disposal, I would be running nothing but virtual synths/samplers...and I mean LOTS and LOTS of them, and making my tracks completely from scratch in the computer. Sure, I'd use hardware as well, especially my analogue synths, but for the digital stuff I don't see the point of tracking stuff when you can in theory have it at your disposal in software.

I've used it before, there are a buttload of great editing tools and plugs; if someone let me loose in a big PT suite with no synths or other instruments, I would still be able to make some of the weirdest shit known to man, just like I would in Cubase or Sonar.

Those who have had the misfortune of listening to my music will understand...:D

There should be no excuse now that PT supports Rewire and companies are writing TDM and RTAS synth plugs, and I hear from the die hard fans that the MIDI is getting better and better, I'm sure it's already beyond what most people are able to get their heads around.


Mucka,

I'm sure you can choose words like Architect, but when you BREAK...UP ALL YOUR....SENTENCES WI .....PERIODS.... SPACES
, AND INCOMLET OR MSPLLDE WERDS...AND TYPE IN ALL CAPS, it makes it very difficult to follow. Seriously, it's like I'm reading a transcript of Stephen Hawking reading a passage from the Bible after getting a handjob.

Both God and Architect have basically said the same thing as you (minus the insults and bravado), the only thing they have done differently is follow the basic rules of written language. They have also taken the time to think out what they want to say and put into a format which is easy to follow by grouping similar thoughts into paragraphs, respecting subject-verb agreement, starting sentences with capital letters and ending them with punctuation, etc.

Some of us really want to know what you think, but you make it hard for us!

Take care,

Nick

[Shonsteez]

WOW!?!
Hey thank all you guys for contributing so much information to this thread. I really appreciate it, plus ive learned alot of other stuff that coinsides with tha initial topic that also turned out to be very helpful......
Maybe someday i'll have tha opportunity to try out such an expensive system as well and put it to tha test?......As for now, i def. need to start my small journey towards creating better filtered music by buying a new soundcard instead of using tha MME that is provided with my computer...
Someone mentioned that tha audiophile is good a while back - thats funny cuz earlier i was considering that one if i bought one that must be installed...But then i decided to maybe take a chance on tha firewire 410 - and im pretty sure im gonna get it now, i just gotta figure out where tha cash is gonna come from?LOL.
Thanks again guys!


Steeze

[themucka]

@vitaminman... YAWNNN...

as usual faque... deliberately i don't know...
i know alot of people who will use jus pro tools alone.. with pro control

if you have the tools available why not... woudn't use a tube tech... or a real dbx subharmonizer.. rather than what sonar provides...

cmon.. your the one with the arrogant BRAVADO... WAKE UP..

i do alot of mixes.. all pro tools... and the came out tight...

i say put a mix you did with vocals on sonar...
and i'll put one i did on PRO TOOLS...

AND WILL SE WHOSE SOUND TIGHTER AND FULLER...

ALL YOU DO IS TALK IS TALK... TALK...

LIKE CUZ YOU A MODERATOR HERE YOUR ALL KNOWING... PLEASE...

TIGHTEN UP.. GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE.. I'M REAL WETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT... ANYONE WHO KNOWS ME KNOWS I'M OUT 2 HELP... YOU THINK I NEED 2 WAIST MY TIME ARGUING,... THAT'S WHY I LEFT THE 1ST TIME....
YOU GUYS AIN'T ABOUT ELEVATING...
YOU GUYS LIKE MAINTAINING AND ATTITUDE... LIKE WERE WRONG FOR ARGUING..

EVERYBODY GOT SOMETHING AGAINST ANYTHING THAT COST MORE 1G HERE
THATS THE TRUTH LOOK AT YOUR THREADS...

IF THIS WAS FOR UPCOMERS YOU WOULD WANT THEM 2 KNOW THE TIGHTEST HIGH END... EQUIPMENT... NOT THE SAME CHEAP STUFF THAT ALL THE ROOKIES USE PEACE..

YALL CAN HAVE IT BACK... I WOULD HAVE LIKE 2 HELP MORE

[God]

Dear Vitaminman:

You are putting assumptions on my part into the argument as you've claimed to decipher my post. I do not mean to be accusatory, but simply hope that what I will say will facilitate positive discussion further.

1. Your obvious misquote is stated in the following, and I don't think you understood what I actually said:

The hardware interfaces that Digidesign manufacture sound better than a lot of third-party cards. God feels that this is a critical element in a system which isn't discussed enough.

What I stated was that CONVERTERS aren't discussed enough as an argument in soundquality. Benchmark and Swissonics if placed on a SONAR system, would obviously increase the quality from a standard card, which is a subjective thing, that's why you pay $400 a channel for Benchmarks. That's great, I know that! I never said that Digidesign native converters are the standard or best. You simply assumed this. Please don't do that. That is subjective, honestly, I always try to get good converters in gear for everything I do. In fact, cheaper converters can "colour" your sound better to get a specific sound out of a synth you want, etc.

I'm trying to show the upside and downsides of BOTH programmes.

If you look at what I was saying, I actually was supporting SONAR if you want "good sound quality" if you have good converters. That's also why I assume you didn't form your argument on sound quality on the way too-high sample rate of 192kHz that TDM 6.x has. You stayed out of that quite nicely, when it is obvious I understand that Digidesign keeps making insane sample rates which are beyond the range of human hearing in order to foster consumer mentality. Thus, I have a good grasp on the garbage sound quality argument that is a subjective thing and I refuse to get into the "warm" or "better" sound argument.

2. I think you overlook "stability" massively. If I have a huge recording session with a band or an artist, I will choose HD because it is more stable. True PT software crashes, but not nearly as much as Native Softwares do. You have to agree with me on that, Vitaminman. That's why, if there is money on the line, and I have a time frame to get X down, then HD is more stable and that's what I choose.

3. My understanding that this was about SONAR w/o any other DSP allocation. If you want to redefine the situation, then do it. I think that using other rack-mounted computers to run VST instruments, etc., and have it allocated off the system the native software is using, is a good thing that ALL people using Native Softwares (like Cubase, SONAR) should consider, since computers are cheaper now, and many of the older computers can relegate processes to their systems without taxing the master computer.

4. I process a lot of effects, and you make it seem like a secondary thing that is not "as necessary." I have a lot of things running, and do not want to be limited by the amount of audio channels I can use, because my computer can't handle it. I want to isolate different cymbals etc, on different channels, and HD lets me do that without problem.

What were the most tracks running w/processing you've used on a Native Software, before you had to start bouncing tracks or throwing stuff around? I don't want to deal with the time wasted on that. I want it to do everything I want it to do real time, all at once, and not deal with incidences that cut into my time.

5. I also made it clear that Digidesign offers a planned obsolescence that is very expensive and sucks people into it. In the culture I am in, where I have to learn to use what the studio owners, or a band wants me to use because their contract has the garbage stated in it (Believe It!) I have to know how to use it. So, I AM FORCED, to use it. So, I have to use it, even though I DO KNOW that I can do everything in SONAR, CEP, or any sequencer, because I am confident in my skills.

Here's a visual:

PT introduced--------------Native Softwares get better-------Parity Almost

early 90's---------------------mid/late 90's--------------------------2003
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

When PT was introduced, it was great, and people bought into the system. And through its evolution, as Native Softwares got better, then there was competition from the lower end... this parity is almost reduced, and Digidesign has to cater to this market, as well as make the high end gear seem better. Digidesign then introduces 192kHz which is unnecessary, and all "pros" wanting to be different, and also, to have the "larger phallus" purchase this. Therefore, people need to know how to use it, and I sit in my studio with a beer, and figure it out, when the version before was fine with me.

I still think that stability is an issue. I've run HD for really long tenures, w/o crashing.

The point:

SONAR IS A BETTER VALUE, it is the future. But if I have the resources and money to have HD now, because I find SONAR to be inconvenient, then I will go with HD.

Digidesign is the past, but has advantages over Sonar, due to Farmcards and stability, which will soon become less pronounced if processors get faster and better, and handle the computations in the code better.

You still have to admit that any allocation of resources from CPU to a DSP will always be better than having it based on the native CPU. Maybe it will get so small, that it won't matter. I wait for the day.

Trust me, Digidesign is a great marketer, it's got a lot of people brainwashed with their low-end stuff. I am skeptical of you saying that SONAR is better than HD, and you can say I'm "brainwashed" with the HD... no, hopefully what I've said is a way of saying that both are great programmes. Costwise, Sonar is a better value, but if I have the money, then why have to bother with limiting my audio tracks because of lack of CPU power? Your way of recording is different than mine, and each producer has a different way... is there a problem if I run too much real-time FX processing from Farmcards that SONAR w/o help from a rack-mount computer to allocate resources can't handle?

I'm with you, from a common sense perspective, if you start allocating resources out to DSPs from SONAR... then well, DIGIDESIGN has a PROBLEM, and can't charge $40K for their garbage.

Sincerely,
God

[vitaminman]

God,

Thanks for the reply!

1. That was a summary of what you and mucka had said about cards, maybe I should have written:

"mucka feels that Digidesign hardware interfaces better than a lot of third-party cards; God feels that convertors are a critical element of a recording system which people don't focus enough energy on." Is this fair?

My comment about the converters was made under the assumption that they are one and the same as interfaces. If I'm not mistaken, convertors are the electronic elements found in an audio interface which do the actual a/d and d/a conversion; the audio interface is the the entire package in a metal housing consisting of 8 a/d convertors and 8 d/a convertors, along with some other exciting stuff like buttons and lights. I assume that if one buys an RME interface, it is not designed to have its convertors swapped out with ones from a different manufacturer. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

And I completely agree that sonic quality is almost entirely dependent on the hardware used to bring the audio into the digital domain. There are things like drivers which can have an effect on the 0's and 1's as they're passed into the host software, by my experience tells me that this is a rare occurence.

2. I didn't intend to overlook stability at all...in fact, because I think that what you said about stability is 100% spot-on, I didn't make much comment on it aside from listing it as one of the benefits of a full PT system.

Oh, I know full well that native software crashes, and isn't it an absolute bugger when it does! I've been terribly lucky in that I take good care of my machines and keep the crashing down to a minimum, knock on wood.

3. I was making a list of the all the things that Sonar and PT were capable of. As the farm card was mentioned in a few posts (by you and mucka), and someone else had mentioned the UAD-1, I added it to the list.

As for running things like System Link on Steinberg stuff (I assume you're talking about this).....I'm so afraid of doing that because there are so many crazy things which could go wrong: multiple operating systems, multiple hardwares from different manufacturers, etc.. I've only ever seen it in use at the Steinberg booths, and those are so well scripted and controlled that I never know what's real and what's not. As for running only synths on a machine a la Gigasampler, that's next on my list to do with an old Frankenstein machine...wish me luck.

4. Yes, I did play down running effects because a lot of people who have posted here have made mention of using so many external harware units to get the sound they wanted. I believe that the quality of software effects that one can use on any system are about equal across the board, but the quantity, of course, jumps up when you have dedicated dsps to do the work.

Maybe they were referring to things like compressors and eq's on the external side, and reverbs and delays on the software side? I'd be interested to know how you (and mucka) decide to use everything...software reverbs, hardware compression? That sort of thing...

5. I think that everyone gets sucked into planned obsolesence, no matter what sofware or hardware you purchase; companies wouldn't survive long if they only made one good product. Syntrillium knew that if they didn't keep adding features and not supporting certain cards or OS's, current customers would just be happy with their version of Cool Edit 96, and potential customers would be drawn to the newer technologies of other companies.

It's a shame that people aren't happy with what they have, and a lot of problems arise from always wanting to have the biggest and fastest out there without fully understanding the power of what they have already...to comment on PT, I was amazed at how many radio stations here in Phoenix were using full blown PT setups to do their radio spots, which usually had no more than 8 tracks. Complete overkill, they could have done their work with the light version of Cool Edit that got bundled with Echo cards a few years ago.

Look at the hard drive market for example: you can get some pretty amazing ones (IDE), 7,200 RPM, ata 133, 120GB for a few hundred bucks, that will perform just fine for someone doing audio and a some video, but people who do only spreadsheets, word documents and surfing the internet feel that they just got to have one of those because they got sucked into the digital media hype of mp3's and streaming video across their 56k internet connections.

Larger phallus? What a divine expression!!! Haha, geddit? Nevermind...



I have never tried to claim that any system is better than another; my arguments here are that you do not need to have PT to make professional sounding music on a computer. The point of my involvement in this thread was to find out from people, especially the big-rig PT users who are fairly small in this forum, why they felt that their system was inherently better than anything else out there, and to do the same with the Sonar users. At least, that's my intention; whether or not this is what other people get out of my posts is another story.

What get's me so involved with these posts are the 'it's just better' arguments from people who don't fully understand the workings of how digital audio works. There isn't any magic, there isn't anything secret voodoo, it's just 0's and 1's. I try to present to people an understanding of how signals make it from the outside world and go into the 'inside' world...

One day I'll make a tutorial here to show people how to use Excel spreadsheet to do basic processing on an audio file to demonstrate that once inside the box, it's JUST NUMBERS. I'm going to market it as Direct-Excel plugins...do you think I'll get rich?

What happens outside the box in the analogue domain is outside my realm of experience and try to refrain from making any comments on it.

Mucka,

One could claim that I'm just snotty loudmouth who likes to write long-winded posts and strongarm everyone on the site just because I'm on the staff, but remember that I was chosen to be on the staff because of the amount of experience I've had with digital audio at the byte level and with different software and hardwares, plus the amount of help that I offer to people trying to get their feet wet. The staff are here completely because they like doing it...man, my favorite bands are Loverboy and Journey, what the HELL am I doing here?

I try to be fair, I try to refrian from blatantly insulting anyone, and I'm the first one to fess up if I misunderstood something or was wrong. By no means am I an expert on everything, and by no means am I the most knowledgeable here...but I do have an opinion on things which I feel I have a good understanding of.


Take care,

Nick

[jamcity]

Not to get into it...but both have good points....
digi oo1 & digi oo2...aint cheap....and it is a good card...just like my midi man...but i do notice a differnce. I own the nubus digi 882 for the mac and it rocks!!..clear and smooth...does not crash, smooth tools and smooth. I agree with "themucka" regarding that it is the Music choice in the studios...and if you would and could afford I think Protools would be the choice.

And I agree with vitaminman you dont' have to have protools to do the job. But it would be nice to have the right gear on hands.
Honestly I have not really played around with Sonar...I have played with the likes of Acid and Vegas....I can say that they have there flaws.....but I can't seem to put down my protools..

[Craig Gantt]

Originally posted by vitaminman
God,


My comment about the converters was made under the assumption that they are one and the same as interfaces. If I'm not mistaken, convertors are the electronic elements found in an audio interface which do the actual a/d and d/a conversion; the audio interface is the the entire package in a metal housing consisting of 8 a/d convertors and 8 d/a convertors, along with some other exciting stuff like buttons and lights. I assume that if one buys an RME interface, it is not designed to have its convertors swapped out with ones from a different manufacturer. Please correct me if I'm wrong.



ok....you lost me right about here:headbang: :crazy:

The bliking lights and bottons thing wa funny though lol

[God]

Dear Vitaminman:

For setup for an RME digiface configuration, Swissonic has a great visual:

http://www.swissonic.com/system_builder/rme.html

You'll also see an RME digiface and HD configuration that they give you... but there are studio design companies with which you work with when building or adding to a studio, because they give you great monetary deals on customising a setup like HD specifically for you, the customer.

I assume you would understand AD DA conversion if you worked with a lot of hardware like you've stated, and digital audio down to the "byte." Why don't you look at the Swissonic website when you're on it, it has more information about AD DA conversion than I wish to spout off here as well as different configurations available.

I think that people underrate jitter in converters, because most people don't really know about it. What matters is how the numbers, as you've eloquently stated, are created.

Another thing I'd like to point out:
Would you record a band or a group on SONAR if a record company gave you 300,000 Dollars and you had a specific deadline to hit, which is usually short and pressure-ridden?

Would you deal with the crashes that Native Softwares would usually bring around during the recording process? Would that be convenient, if you had the money? Would people give you a lot of money to record/produce them, when they stand around and wait for a programme to boot up again, or there is a bug that causes problems in an unstable Windows Native programme? They wouldn't take you seriously if there was a lot of crashing.

That's why I've stated that a lot of people on this site aren't in those sitautions, and SONAR is a better value. You have already said you understand the crashing element of Native Softwares. I know of the downsides of PT as well.

You could say, jokingly, that you'd record in SONAR natively, and take the extra money you'd spend on HD and pocket it. But what if you had to things like this day in and day out on a SONAR system. How many times would it crash. It would simply be a headache, as well as bouncing tracks because the native computer can't fully automate all the tracks I use, or run them simultaneously.

Vitaminman, I've done a lot of things for different people and companies, and seen and heard a lot of stuff from people in the music business. I don't necessarily care for where a person has been or who a person is, because a lot of stuff is "talk" in the music industry. However,you are extremely knowledgeable, and from you posts, I could already discern that you knew a gargantuan amount of things about digital audio, as well as your association with it in a professional manner. I never doubted it, or doubted your knowledge. I can see you are not just all "talk." However, you add "quizlike" questions to which the answers you know already. Because, I presume, you'd know from the type of answers you've given in other posts. They seem moot to the discussion, like your RME question and the Excel comments. I understand your points and don't doubt you or your comments.

Just curious, how many channels of audio can you support on your Native Software before you start bouncing audio tracks or grouping them onto one channel, Vitaminman?

I am simply here to facilitate discussion, blinking lights and all.

Sincerely,
God

[fame_keyz]

Check this out everybody if you was to put as much energy into getting your skills as yall have into proving why this is better then the next yall might get a chance to have the money to do and use what the hell yall feel good using. Theres gona be top of the line stuff and theres gona low level stuff but i dont care if your using cool edit, sonar or pro tools hd if your skills on the beats suck it will show and if you skills are good somebodys gona to pay to get your music on the best so unless we all are triing to open a up a full time for business studio just get something that will get the point across with no hissss and show that you have skills......Thats what its really about.....Sound is great but we all are at the bottom we all unknown and i dont think pro tools is gona get you a deal. Maybe understanding it might keep you around in the studio a lil longer but lets be real at the end of the mix nobodies really letting any of our wet behind the ear asses touch the last mix anyways. Use what you feel good cause music will come out the best when you feel good using your tools.

[vitaminman]

Hey,

Again, thanks for the reply.

I misunderstood the term 'convertor': I used this to mean the actual component, but according to some of the sites it refers to the entire box (blinking lights and all :D) which connects to the computer through another device, like an ADAT card. I suppose at the end of the day it doesn't matter, each component is important.

Checked out the site for Swissonics, I had no idea that people would fork out so much cash for something when they already have high-end gear with analogue ins and outs like the MOTU cards...I've just never needed to track more than 8 channels at a time, I guess for guys doing the BIG stuff like recording an entire band something like this would be a great idea.

I see that Digi makes a few different HD interfaces, my guess is that guys who want to use their own converters would get one with ADAT or other digital ports. So would someone with something like the HD 192 I/O still use different convertors when it has its own convertors?

Where it did make sense was with the Nuendo card (which I believe is by RME), and this is the kind of system I would eventually like to run: choose a PCI card which runs well with my software, and choose which convertors I want to bring my audio into the computer...what power! At the moment I can't tell the difference between all the lower spectrum of the pro cards and how they sound...I run a Delta 1010 and DSP Factory, to my ears they both sound great and they get the job done, but I hear people getting into heated debates about the Apogee's and Swissonics like the future of the planet depended on them...I just listen.

If I did get a card, it would probably be an RME because they have some sort of thing with Steinberg where an ASIO driver thingy is made part of the card, which as you can imagine must mean that there is about close to 0ms latency as possible.

Sorry about the 'this is who I am' speech in my last post, that wasn't directed at you. Thanks for the kind words, though.

How many tracks on my native system? I'm not sure,....I only use two physical outs of my 1010, but can run up to maybe 40+ mono channels of audio. It's sort of weird: in my mind I'm streaming all this audio, but in reality they're virtual tracks being mixed either by the CPU or card down to a single device which gets sent to my mixer...but when talking to guys who do a lot of 'real' tracking and mixing down externally, they all say I only have 8 tracks because that's how many outputs my card has.

As for grouping, I only group when trying to be efficient with something like a reverb or when I want to control a bunch of stuff with a single fader, this is all done by the software.

I've never ever bounced tracks. Probably should have a few years ago when my machine wasn't so fast, but it never seemed like a good idea because I was always wanting to change something. Being honest, though, I probably never bounced stuff down because there weren't enough tracks to fully push my system to point of needing to. Most of my songs now only have about 20 or so tracks (most of them stereo), and I will export things like vocal choruses as individual mono files so I can edit and mix them down to a stereo file in CEP (I like to do detailed stuff more in CEP than in Cubase) before bringing them back into Cubase to mix with everything else. This is done for simplicity's sake, though, as it reduces screen clutter and allows me to have everything exportable from Cubase. "Group tracks?" I hear you say... I don't like them, maybe I'm just not smart enough to use them.

As for understanding the actual conversion process of digital audio, I don't have a clue...We only cared about the numbers once they were in the box; the 'how and why' they got there was for the studio guys. We did care about the interfaces which converted the audio mainly because we had to make sure that we were receiving data from the driver as it was intended to be received...to us, the software driver and the physical interface were one and the same; you couldn't use Delta1010 drivers to pass data from an Audigy card, for example.

Would I record a band in Sonar if someone gave me $300,000 and a deadline to do it? I can't give you a fair answer on that because I know nothing about having to do that kind of recording under those conditions. I'll assume that you do (you lucky lucky person you!) and take your word for it that PT is the way to go.

There are plenty of people who claim that their native systems can handle that kind of work, whether or not they actually do is true is another story. I think that you and I do different kinds of recording and editing and maybe our own ways of working is suited to the systems which we work with. If you're working with 40+ channels of audio, you've probably surpassed the amount of tracks used to make the majority of hip hop tracks; at least, to my ears, it doesn't sound like most songs on our local hip hop station use more than 15, which is why I argue that PT is such overkill.

Mixing an entire album in a single PT session, however, is different; it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see a hip hop album using all sorts of tracks and effects.

Quizlike questions? You bet. Playing devil's advocate gets people talking and hopefully we can teach and learn something together. Do I know the answers? I'll have an answer, but I don't know all the time if it is the right one. Look at this thread for example, there has been some pretty good discussions here, I've certainly learned a thing or two and some other people have picked up some information on the way. Do I come across like an ass? Most definitely, and that's why Illmuzik pays me the big dollars :dance:

Take care,

Nick

[h2flow]

Hmmm,... In my opinion I would defineitly opt for a protools HD or TDM
set up over sonor and some other card.....

In my opinion software and hardware go hand in hand.....
The protools HD and TDM set up seem to offer a good implementaion of the two together.

Personally I don't like the digi 01,....There are more economical approaches for consumers at that level...

I agree with god that a/d convertors are an extremely important factor in hardware(sound cards)......

good looking out, god for that swissonic link......im going to check it out..

Even though Mucka seems to be arrogant at times, He does in fact bring up some good points...

If you serious about music,....sometimes you gotta put money where your mouth is....and invest in good gear.........

hey vitaminman,....
I own a dsp factory but I busted the ax44,.... I'll proablly still try to fix it.....I was wondering what about the the delta 1010,...
how does it compare to the dsp factory... in terms of straight recording(as god would put it in the A/D conversion)....The dsp factory has some decent built in effects,...but I'm not really interested in that at the monment......or mic pre's, phantom power,or etc....

[vitaminman]

Hey,

I really really like the DSP Factory, the only reason I switched to the 1010 was because the support for it in Cubase SX wasn't very good and the XP/2000 drivers were a little shakey.

The AX44 is installed in my old machine, and to be honest I never used it because it was inconvenient to have cables running out of the front of my machine.

The 1010 can record 24 bits 96khz and is has 8 ins and outs (10 if you use the spdif as well); the DSP Factory with the AX44 can record 20 bits 48khz with 6 ins and outs (8 if you use the spdif as well).

If you have a second AX44, you can increase those numbers, but I don't know exactly if you can go beyond 8.

You can run 2 DSP Factories on the same machine and they will sync with each other, and you can get the SX1000 card which is basically a hardware sound module on a card. Very cool.

The 1010 gets much better latency, mine is about 15 ms; I only got 30ms latency with the DSP Factory.

The 1010 is still supported by MAudio, the DSP Factory hasn't been supported for almost 2 years, although I believe that there are new XP drivers available.

There's more to the DSP Factory than just the effects. It's like PT in the fact that the card handles practically all the mixing and routing of your audio, provided that you route your tracks correctly in the host software. The 1010 does this as well, but it's not as flexible.

And those effects are pretty darn good: 2 sends, 4 bands of parametric eq and dynamics on each of 24 channels...its design was based on the Yamaha 02r digital mixer, which was a pretty big deal when it came out.

Take care,

Nick