HD Rig

[Scholar]

ok im starting to make my move to upgrade my rig! lookin at all the options, i would like a lil advice! thanks in advance!

[LDB]

List what u already have!

[thedreampolice]

What kid of HD rig do you want and why?

[dacalion]

LMAO @ dp! We already see your view on this...hahaha, but let me try to answer your questions....what kind? - being that this is the digidesign forum, my guess is that it's a good possibility ummm PT? (hahaha, still laughing at you). and why? - because he wants to upgrade - just a wild guess on that one! hahahaha!

I fuk'n luv illmuzik...you guys are ill for real!

[thedreampolice]

@Dac


sigh, there are multiple PT HD rigs. I was wondering what HD rig he was looking at. And my view is that every pro studio should be running Pro tools HD.

But at a minimum entry price of 10k I want to make sure the rest of his gear is up to snuff.

I am Pro tool certified you know :)

[dacalion]

I'm a Pro at being a Tool and I'm certified as well =)

and stop sighing at me, what would we be if we didn't give each other HELL?

[thedreampolice]

Dude, the world would end!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k1wHnkg4mmY/TWFyo-e9-dI/AAAAAAAAAE0/Uey0yb5w6E4/s1600/charlie-sigh.jpg

ha ha :)

[Scholar]

i have a Tascam fw 1884 PT 9 and a dual core PC, not a mac lol. i keep hearing that hd 2 is the minimum, im just tryin to get an idea what i would need ya know

[thedreampolice]

What kind of mics and monitors do you have.

Also Hd native is a real option these days.

[Scholar]

well i have AT 3035 and Studio Projects B1 also a Golden age mic pre 73, my monitors are Behringer Truths 10yrs old, im replacing them as well.

[thedreampolice]

yea man, I would say you have a ton of other upgrades to do to your studio before your drop at least 8-12k on a PT HD rig.

[Scholar]

suggestions?

[LDB]

I think right now DP is saying u want a Brand new G6 Jet but you don't have a pilots license to fly. In other words, your money would be more well spent on upgrading things like your monitors and other surrounding gear before you look at the HD rig.

[thedreampolice]

yea LDB, that is exactly right.

Your monitors are by far your most important part of your rig, drop a couple of grand on nice monitors. Upgrade your mics, make sure your room has acoustic treatment. Get some nice pre's all those things make a huge difference in your sound. Get all that done, then maybe look at an HD rig. I do think a real Pro studio should run an HD rig. But right now you would be putting a Ferrari engine in a ford Taurus.

[Scholar]

yeah thats what im gettin at, now eventually imma have to get rid of the 1884, the monitors are goin to be replace very soon, my room is treated, took care of that last yr. suggestions for mics, what pre's and im building a 12 core pc. what monitors? im lookin for suggestions/ideas, thanks again

[thedreampolice]

Sure, tell me more about the goals of your studio. Are you just doing mixs? Are you recording bands? Making beats? Recording emcees? What do you want the studio to be doing in 5 years?

[Formant024]

PT9 + Any nice 8chnl i.o. ... Avid/pt is overrated :)

[dacalion]

I agree but why do you say that?

[Scholar]

well i do alot of it all, we are working with a live band, i record my artist,we do commercial dubs, so i stay a lil busy, i want to put out the best sound recordings i can, my studio i would like to be known for a nice sound ya know? like i said, im lookin at a few options, i was looking at that saffire 56 joint and a mackie mcu, that would replace my 1884, i like the krk 8's and the yamaha hs80 i played with those at GC and the krks at a local studio. tryin to see what are some options, i mean hell if PT native is based off my pc i may aswell build a beast! and stay how i am...

[Formant024]

^^^ because he's looking at a HD rig when PT9 works with all i/o now. Imo, the ssl alphalink already sounds better than the latest hd rig (or if you have a hd rig already look at the ssl deltalink).

[Formant024]

well i do alot of it all, we are working with a live band, i record my artist,we do commercial dubs, so i stay a lil busy, i want to put out the best sound recordings i can, my studio i would like to be known for a nice sound ya know? like i said, im lookin at a few options, i was looking at that saffire 56 joint and a mackie mcu, that would replace my 1884, i like the krk 8's and the yamaha hs80 i played with those at GC and the krks at a local studio. tryin to see what are some options, i mean hell if PT native is based off my pc i may aswell build a beast! and stay how i am...

what budget will you be looking at ? how many i/o and how many pre-amps do you need ?

[Scholar]

ok my grams passed she left all her kids 10k 8 kids...anyway ma dukes gave me hers, to help fund my biz... imma stack till tax season so i should have about 14k to play with! im tryin to see whats the best route, the largest set i have done was 24 tracks at once, but that was some live shit. yo thanks for yall time!

[thedreampolice]

What are your plans as far as growing the business? How much will you spend on marketing?

In this situation I would absolutely put the money in to mic's and pre amps. Mainly because these are two things that don't devalue over time, for example a 3k U87 will have a high resell value forever, where an HD rig will be worth nothing at some point in the next decade. And dear god spend some money on decent monitors. That is where you should not go cheap!

Let me think about what you need and I will get back to you.

[Formant024]

14k for a 24track mobile setup ?

There's a lotta ways to go around this but also look if there's a good place to rent audio stuff. If you ever come to an exploit where you need 24chnls of pre amps or more, rent one for that one occasion.

You could get an rme madi card for mobile, hook up the alphalink on madi and a 8chnl pre amp connected to the adat port of the alphalink. You'd have 8 really good mic pre's and the rest ssl lines. In this setup you'd have enough to get proper nearfields and the avid artist controller. done!

[Scholar]

no not a mobile rig, im settin up my studio space, and yes i know i need new monitors, i treated my room last year, and trust me i know, my mixes dont translate consistant enough. the tascam isnt a bad unit, just tascam dont support it any longer...so im lookin for a unit that will get long time support! i been lookin at rme and that saffire joint.

[Formant024]

No experience with the saffire, not to positive on the previous saffire interfaces but @ $1000 bucks for 8mic pre's and 8 lines/10 outs you're set to go.

RME doesnt make pre's like the isa but Focusrite doesnt make converters like RME lol. I worked with the hdsp, awesome stuff from rme but the downpart is that most of gear doesnt come with mic pres and when they do it wont be enough.

Most audio products that provide long term service are solid state based gear. You can bet that the Tascam will get a replacement or cirquitboard replacement, so the saffire will probably have the same guarantee. I often dont bother much and set the expectations based on previous products/service, even more valuable is a good distributer. Ive seen our's doing the long stretch and anything that hasnt been right we got full support from them aswell from ssl(in our issues, ssl wasnt enough).

I'd still suggest a better base opposed to the saffire, RME HDSPe Madi is very flexible. Granted that you'd still need the a/d pre and lines, but there's a lot of options within a reasonable budget, but from the looks of it, it might be too much. I gather from looking at the saffire you want 8 line in and 8 mic pres ? Do you actualy need a lot of line d/a ?

[Scholar]

I was curious as to if i need that many as well, i mean i do have a band that i work with, but i guess a mixer could help...so many choices...

[Formant024]

Often a trade off, if you dont need a mixer, dont get one but get an avid artist mix instead. I simply state that the best signalpath from source to recorder has nothing in between...not even a mixer. What you do need is some controlroom functions you'd find on a mixer, presonus central station is a common replacement on budget, big spenders go Cranesong Avocet or custombuild.

But it is important to count the amount of pre's you need, a drumkit is 2 mics in the least, but normaly would already take up almost all pre's on a saffire. Its nice to have 32 topnotch pres but if you know which mics are going to be used on a good mic or position then you might consider other pre's to be less selective so you could dable between a topnotch 8 chnl pre amp via adat to ...any daw interface. If that interface comes with mic pre's then you could use those for source that dont suite a grade A mic pre.

Nice 8chnl mic pre on a budget is the motu 8pre, bang for the buck imo. Connect on FW or expands via adat (or merge interfaces via osx).

[Scholar]

Well i def want a controller, like mackie, but i know i need a new front end, a higher definition front end, i was lookin at focusrite because they claim that PT9 is a partnership they made, and i was gonna just turn my fw 1884 into a adat box with 8 more pres...i got mad options i see!

[Formant024]

PT9 doesnt require any specific hardware, sure..some stuff is probably more dedicated but that still addresses the most basic features. There are a lot bridge devices, to have connectivity with an HD rig and analog/digital i/o. This just marketing, its rarely the case that a daw truly depends on specific hardware (like most mastering setups).

Maybe its smart to check on nearfields first, check your roomsize to match size drivers (not to big). Then get a base setup for connetivity and you basic 12-16 chnls analogue i/o + digital i/o. We wennt for a base setup with ssl madi extreme and alphalink madi ax, which combined with logic gives insanely little latency using 32 samples up to 88.2kHz. Though, this might be more relevant when recording a band opposed to pre production itb.

[Scholar]

Yeah i know PT9 made it open to third party interfaces, im merely stating i want something very stable, im not a mac guy, so i have to build my own most times, now i hear the saffire has nice converters and pre's, but rme is mad stable with great support! Now you mentioned the Avid artist mix, is that better then the mackie mcu? see here there isnt much to go and try out, our guitar center is small, so not much in stock, have to order it and shit, back to the monitors, sadly my room is small, 10x9x9, but i treated it, thinkin bout framin out the basement,tryin to be ready to go by spring! yo thanks for the advice, much love!

[Formant024]

Ouch..your room is almost square, get good small speakers lol. PC part is still a little unforunate when looking at perfomance osx vs windows, coreaudio whoops major ass when it comes to latency. In fact, a macbook running pt9 rightnow would have no latency problems at all when using the ONBOARD soundcard' i/o. On a pc, regardless of what windows version you're going to run, you always have 2ms latency. Not that it underlines what's key about osx, but osx is spot on for running a daw. Dont get me wrong either on windows, been using windows daws for years and as long as its itb and pre-production you'll find nothing wrong. On recording you'll get the most hardware support from osx, best support for daw. You could go hackintosh but be warned that some pci-e cards dont work properly (rme/ssl).

The artist mix is nice, by the looks, features, everything you're going to need is there, motorized and touchsensitive. Its not made for any specific daw but it adapts the easiest to logic and pt(there's templates for everything, but for those 2 its pretty much connect/go).

It DOES have some issues; the previous and first model had cheap(recycled)covers which tend to break easy and thats not even remotely funny considering the price. The avid is probably exactly the same, different color, different logo. The Avid artist mix has had a lousy firmware upgrade as a follow up to the euphonix since they havent found out the proper encoding for motorized faders. The faders receive a digital signal stating to which position it should go but they got the trimming all wrong. It looks and sounds like a servo which you want give a pulse to move beyond its reach. Its stutters, shakey moves and noise emitting telling you it does not compute. Im guessing Avid went ahead to hastly workout the firmware upgrade and never got this right, but shit gotta sell lol (imo, this isnt a hardware bug, just sloppy firmware).

TBH, we've been looking to acquire them in the studio since they got out but we're just not convinced yet. I could see Euphonix developing an army grade controller if you like, but Avid/M-audio sometimes makes me want to cry, ergo, i dont think they will improve much of it (i think theyve said that the bugfixes to the current firmware should be available in september...)

The major annoying ffin thing is, its still the best design out there. When i look at it i think "i dont need more, i dont need less..this is it".

[Scholar]

whats a ideal room size? my basement is large, with 9 foot ceilings, and im really considering moving down there, it would allow more traffic without bothering my family...my uncle is a contractor said he would do the work as long as i help and buy supplies...talk to me folks! lol

[Formant024]

There's 5x7x3(m)/5x8x3 from the fibonacci sequence. Its not so much the size, but the ratio that creates the shape which matters...


ultimately there's a solution for every room.
http://www.cardas.com/pdf/roomsetup.pdf

[Scholar]

There's 5x7x3(m)/5x8x3 from the fibonacci sequence. Its not so much the size, but the ratio that creates the shape which matters...


ultimately there's a solution for every room.
http://www.cardas.com/pdf/roomsetup.pdf

Thanks for that, could help me if i move in the basement,ok i got a question, iMac or Mac Pro, you got me rethinking building a pc, and i was just lookin over at apple,maybe i will break down and get a mac...in any event thanks all that helped confuse yet set me straight! peace!

[thedreampolice]

If you are eventually going Pro tools HD a imac is out.

[Scholar]

yeah no room for cards, was just peepin that out, what about the monitors, i been doin alot of research, like i said im tryin to get ideas so when i got all my ducks in hand, ill know what im ordering!

[thedreampolice]

as far as near fields go, Formant and I where actually discussing that in another thread.

Personally I am very partial to the Focals. You could pick up a pair of CMS65's for like $1600 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CMS65/

The three main studios I work at have Focals, NS10, and JBL's. At home I have Event 20/20 Bas's (the older models not the reissue) that I love. But if I could just pick one it would be Focals hands down.

[Formant024]

yeah, while imac has enough power it lacks pci-e slots :( so you'releft with a mac pro.

FYI Multicores are dope, but osx only uses 1 core when recording lol. Still, get the best mac pro you can afford.

Tip on Cardas page, diagram I is the best, its the theather mode. If you can build it with your uncle then consider one side wall being an existent one, meaning you have to calculate an angle for the sidewall you need to build and place it in the rectangle room. The ceiling also has a slope in the trapagon but you dont need! to build you ceiling that way, you can also hang up big diffusers and place them in an angle accordingly above your head.

[Scholar]

yeah i saw that, was checkin out them focals, just wish i had a store to A/B stuff, but thanks for yall knowledge, mad welcome here!

[Formant024]

as far as near fields go, Formant and I where actually discussing that in another thread.

Personally I am very partial to the Focals. You could pick up a pair of CMS65's for like $1600 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CMS65/

The three main studios I work at have Focals, NS10, and JBL's. At home I have Event 20/20 Bas's (the older models not the reissue) that I love. But if I could just pick one it would be Focals hands down.

I'd go with the Focal Solo instead of the cms, heard they had quite some issues with that serie. If you get the chance, listen to some Neumann KH120's, they're pretty neutral/flat. I cant compare em to the o300's but they still articulate everything very clear. Though im saying this in regards to the small room. If you get a bigger room(basement) you might look at 10" nearfields instead, you go up quite a bit moneywise but room+better nearfields is half the job :)

[thedreampolice]

Yea if the solo's are in the budget go for them!

Focal was always a strange company to deal with. Mainly since they are french they take like 3-4 months off completely every year. So if you are out of stock of monitors or if there are any issues to be dealt with then you have to wait a few months. But it is cool that the government mandates long vacation!

[Scholar]

lmao yall got me really thinkin!

[Formant024]

^^^ building a studio isnt just buying the gear, in fact, a studio is never finished lol. I see a lot of people improving their studio but they hardly got their bases correct, lots of ways to go around it but if you can get base right you wont need much "improving" :)

[Scholar]

imma make a video of my basment, and show yall when i get home from work!

[Scholar]

well after a visit to the basement and lookin at it really, im going to have to say its a bust down there...lol oh well. but thanks for the help fellas, learned alot, and glad to know i got help! One!

[Scholar]

my basement - YouTube

well i figured ill show the basement anyway. let me know what ya think!

[Relic]

I think it looks haunted..
Your going to have to sound treat the hell out of that place because the walls arent good for sound mixing.

[Scholar]

oh no doubt, me and my uncle are thinkin about framing it out, its mad dry, so no leaks and shit. just the build of it is gonna be crazy, im debating if i want to frame it out, or look for a building, or stay in my small room...i have choices, just exploring...

oh BTW Relic, me and the boogie man blaze down there often!

[LDB]

oh no doubt, me and my uncle are thinkin about framing it out, its mad dry, so no leaks and shit. just the build of it is gonna be crazy, im debating if i want to frame it out, or look for a building, or stay in my small room...i have choices, just exploring...

oh BTW Relic, me and the boogie man blaze down there often!


I suggest that u NOT do that unless you're going to get proper ventilation down there. And I'm not talking ventilation for your equipment...it's for you and your health. Basements are notorius for having unhealthy gases. You'll start developing health issues that creep up you slowly. You'll be sick as a dog and won't know why. Could even cause long term damage.

[Scholar]

I suggest that u NOT do that unless you're going to get proper ventilation down there. And I'm not talking ventilation for your equipment...it's for you and your health. Basements are notorius for having unhealthy gases. You'll start developing health issues that creep up you slowly. You'll be sick as a dog and won't know why. Could even cause long term damage.

well thanks for that concern, but its pretty well vented down there, i just showed the side im thinkin of building on, im well aware of all the issues of buildin anything sublevel. good lookin out though!

[LDB]

well thanks for that concern, but its pretty well vented down there, i just showed the side im thinkin of building on, im well aware of all the issues of buildin anything sublevel. good lookin out though!

U may THINK it's ok but trust me....grab one of these to make sure https://homeradontest.com/order_radon_test_kit.php. They're not expensive! I had issues at my last home and it came with a totally finished basement. 3 Bedrooms,2nd kitchen and a bathroom down there. I basically lived down there 8 to 12 hours a day for two years. Developed a nasty dry cough that took several months after moving to get rid of. Still don't know what the long term effects of it will be. Be safe not sorry!

[Scholar]

i got ya fam, no doubt, good lookin out!

[Scholar]

ok imma stay in the small room for a while build a cloud type RFZ in my room. i had it scoped, and yeah few more bass traps and some joints from the ceiling, and i should be good,on the room. Now with all this AES hoop la jumpin around(pt 10, new HD stuff,blah blah blah) imma wait and see what jumps out, i do know imma go with the Mackie MCU with 2 extenders, Im gonna be recording a Live reggae bands next album in january, should be fun, my wife is excited...lol as for the HD rig lets see what avid drops, if nothing i can afford, ill go RME with 2 Focusrite OctoPre MKII...as for the monitors, A7x and Focals have been the topic of discuss, i see they released the Events 20/20bas,.. now Mics and Pres...Still kickin this mule around, like i said,i have a GAP-73 nice joint too, but this is where i wanna get a tube i guess since i have a solid state pre...Im gonna have to stay around 1500.00 bucks for this and 1500.00 for mic, or get some modded mics...talk to me yall! lol thanks

[Formant024]

dude, look these up

http://www.oktavamod.com/

we got modded MK012, again bang for a buck really nice stuff there.

[Formant024]

Honestly dude, stick with PT as a daw, get a mac and a really nice i/o. Are you going to record those bands mobile or in your studio ? You can focus on your future jobs and buy accordingly but you can also rent things you need for rare events. Like get the bases covered then look where to rent an additional 8pre and mic's. Do get some mics though but dont overdo it if your recordingroom isnt that suitable. Like we had some brainstorming this weekend regarding our studio and how relevant it is to have one when looking at customers worthy to exploit the room. Besides other exploits we have 4-5 bands with a good budget to record, mix an album in a year. But for those occasions we could also just rent a suitable studio, we already rent stuff on various cases because you simply cant buy everything lol.

Also, i like madi a lot, its adaptive, good cable lengths and less cables! I think that right now its safe to say that SSL has hit the price/performance top. There's always better but you wont get that much i/o with that quality for the price of the alphalink at this moment. I'd add one 8pre indeed and rent another one when needed. Add the rme pcmcia madi i/o and you can take your rig on stage.

[Scholar]

dude, look these up

http://www.oktavamod.com/

we got modded MK012, again bang for a buck really nice stuff there.

yeah i talked to their cust service, they told me they can mod my sp b1 and i was lookin at a tube joint to, so yeah im hip to these cats, def gonna hit them up! i was lookin at that madi stuff, i dont think i can afford that...ill see

[Scholar]

Formant024, sadly, i dont have a spot here we can rent gear like that from. we just got a guitar center here not to long ago, and that shit is small, and only cater really to the guitar/drummer types...they wouldnt even order the focals without a deposit, which i find strange...so i have to take yall word, work with what i have, and hope for the best!

[Formant024]

well, work down your budget, how much can you afford, i'd cut down the mackie expander since they dont do anything for your sound.

[Scholar]

well, work down your budget, how much can you afford, i'd cut down the mackie expander since they dont do anything for your sound.

and what get that Madi joint? something like this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solid-State-Logic-XLogic-Alpha-Link-w-X-LOGIC-MadiXtreme-64-PCIe-MADI-AX-SSL-/290615248433?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43aa04c631

[Formant024]

and what get that Madi joint? something like this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solid-State-Logic-XLogic-Alpha-Link-w-X-LOGIC-MadiXtreme-64-PCIe-MADI-AX-SSL-/290615248433?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43aa04c631

Exactly, 24 i/o + 2x 8 micpre for little less then $4k.

Also, look at a Motu 8pre vs Focusrite Octopre MKII. The motu has fooled many people in blind tests but from my experience i'd prefer a multi mic pre with individual phantom power switching instead of switching entire banks like the Focusrite.

[Step Soprano]

Exactly, 24 i/o + 2x 8 micpre for little less then $4k.

Also, look at a Motu 8pre vs Focusrite Octopre MKII. The motu has fooled many people in blind tests but from my experience i'd prefer a multi mic pre with individual phantom power switching instead of switching entire banks like the Focusrite.

This. I don't like to use my interface pre's at all, infact I never use em. I have a Appogey 8 input, 4 pre interface now, but looking at a motu 24/io for my Focusrite Control 2802 controller/console + my Trident summing amp, and my Univeral Audio La610 MkII preamp/comp.

[Formant024]

^^ yeah but mainly aiming there at something digital with 8mic pres.

Question though, whats wrong with summing on audient ?(vs the trident summer).

[Step Soprano]

^^ yeah but mainly aiming there at something digital with 8mic pres.

Question though, whats wrong with summing on audient ?(vs the trident summer).
I do sum on the audient/focusrite, however it has no EQ's. I use the trident for the eq's and for a diff flavor pre if I need it.

[Formant024]

I do sum on the audient/focusrite, however it has no EQ's. I use the trident for the eq's and for a diff flavor pre if I need it.

ah ofc..hehe the focusrite only uses the signal path of the audient, the rest are just controllers. I figured you're using the oram/trident, it got a lot of crappy responses afaik way back, how is it doing for you ?

[Step Soprano]

ah ofc..hehe the focusrite only uses the signal path of the audient, the rest are just controllers. I figured you're using the oram/trident, it got a lot of crappy responses afaik way back, how is it doing for you ?

For side work that I do at my place, it works great when used as a simple outboard EQ. I didn't pay anywhere near the 5,000 it was retailing for at one point. I traded my korg M3(have enough plug ins, plus a fantom and korg r3 synth) for it and my mbox3 pro(had no use for it when I got it, free). So for what I got it for, it's good. Though if I had to pick between the SSL 4000 eq's at my work and the trident? Well that's a no brainer.

[Formant024]

Yeah thats a no brainer though we decided not to opt an ssl4k+ and skip the use of an entire console in favor of a cleaner signalpath. Mynx not an option for you ?

[Step Soprano]

Yeah thats a no brainer though we decided not to opt an ssl4k+ and skip the use of an entire console in favor of a cleaner signalpath. Mynx not an option for you ?

Lynx? I could probably get one, though I'm not sure I have the need at the moment. The motu offers 24 i/o, which is nice for patching different things in, and for summing on the 2802. However, I am hesitant to drop 3200 on an aurora 16 when I rarely get time to record people at my place these days. 18-48 hour days at work can make that impossible. I'll send you a pm with my cell, though, hit me up.

[Formant024]

^^ I meant the ssl mynx for small format processing modules, their E series EQ module the 4k one.

http://www.solid-state-logic.com/special/summer_mynx.asp

[Step Soprano]

^^ I meant the ssl mynx for small format processing modules, their E series EQ module the 4k one.

http://www.solid-state-logic.com/special/summer_mynx.asp

lol, my bad, yea, I can afford a mynx, but with the hours I get at my studio? what I have now is fine. Waka loved the sound, Slim Dunkin(RIP) loved it too, rivaled the big atlanta studio they had been paying a lot more to work in they said. So i'll continue with that until my money gets bigger, soon I hope.