Production Roundtable

[Treynine39]

All the producers or beatmakers in the site should express what they feel are good and bad, produciton-wise, in hip hop.

I feel the best thing about producing now is the versatility and creativity of some producers out there (Neptunes, Jazzy Pha, and of course Dre and Tim)

The bad thing about out right now is there is too many people using blatant samples. Like 3 out of J. Lo's last 4 hits, Jay-Z/Toni Braxton, and Ashanti. That is just pure lazy. I'm sure all them songs would have done good if you threw and original track to them. Every once in a while it isn't badbut when you listen to the radio and it seems like every track is redone from a past hit, it's boring.

[J-UK]

I think a lot of todays hip hop production is quite boring. Producers are just making the same thing. It seems that someone makes a beat that is original and then the style just gets copied. I see this happen a lot in the mainstream production especially and I think that the stuff that doesnt get heard as much is a lot better. I like the production from the uk at the moment, a lot of the hip hop coming out here is original and good. I think that if you are an aspiring artist you make better beats but if you are an producer making beats for well known artists you would get lazy.

[Fade]

Damn, I thought I was gonna start this kind of thread! Good lookin'.

I think the current state is quite stale. Nothing exciting coming out, everything just seems rushed. It seems like producers are happy with just creating a 4 or 8 bar loop and looping it for 4 minutes, then calling it a "song".

I'm actually listening to some Motown right now (ok I shouldn't really compare it to hip-hop), and that music just had soul, it had something to it that made you wanna move. A lot of time and practice went into creating that kind of music, but Hip-Hop production today seems rushed. Maybe it's the record companies that are pushing for too much product too soon, forcing the producers to hurry up and use the same samples and patterns over and over.

What today's production needs is a few cats to sort of "revolutionize" it. Bring something new to the table that won't go out of style in a year or two. The Neptunes brought some heat a few years back, but their stuff is getting a little tired now.

I could go on and on, I'm gonna take a break and see what others have to say before I add some more input.

[BeatOff]

The problem is with the record lables. Nobody cares about anybody other than the same 4 or 5 big time producers. Lables will want their artists on neptunes beats because they are hot at the momment. There was a time when swizz beats was hot and thats all you heard, then timbaland and thats all you heard, now its Neptunes and Just Blaze. Thats all you hear. Its a fucking joke now. Clear channel has ruined the industry and somebody should go assasinate the entire staff of clear channel.

I make R&B now because i dont like dealing with rappers who want beats that sound like so in so. All i get from MC's is, "I want beats like primo, i want beats like neptunes." I never had an R&B artist just come at me like that. They want beats I make to go with their vocals. I mean they can adapt to the sound if they got talent. I've grown very bored with hiphop music in general. With R&B there's always time for some soothing funky good vocals over an original beat. I'm not trying to make that typical boring R&B with the played out shit on every song. Hopefully things will go smooth but as for production in general like i said, there are plenty of dope original producers out there but they are getting no love from big companies becuase they like shit to be repetative and only want 20 songs played per day across the US. I'm outraged.

[JPeg]

Interesting producers there are some hot ones for instance RJD2, Jay-Dee, J-zone and Madlib.

Those peeps just mentioned are just some producers out there in the hip hop arena making good compositions and whose music has changes and progressions in the songs.

Madlib is making Jazz compositions in 15 minutes and playing all the instruments himself so u cant say he aint being creative.

But check the interview urself at www.stonesthrow.com

[Ques]

Hip Hop is lost what you and i want most and that creative minds.
what most have forgotten is the feel, you know like back in the park when you before call yourself a producer, ya mans be like give me a beat or just at bench beatboxing. Now head do it for work and true i agree most out today is boring and with that soon are thier minds.

[metrosoul]

HMMMMM.............WELL WE HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN BEFORE EVEN WITH THE GREAT ONES. NAS ABANDONS PETE ROCK AND PREMIER TO GET WITH A BUNCH OF FAGS, RAKIM LEAVES ERIC B. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN AND WHY DOES THIS HAPPEN? WHO THE HELL KNOWS. PETE ROCK AND PREMIER PRODUCED ARGUIBLY THE BEST ALBUM OF ALL TIME, BUT FOR SOME REASON NAS DECIDES TO LEAVE THEM. YOU WOULD THINK HE HAS LOST HIS MIND AND I PERSONALY THINK HE DID. SLUM VILLAGE LEFT JD FOR SOME LOSER, BUT WHY? THE ONLY REASON THEY WERE GOOD WAS BECAUSE OF THE BEATS, AND THEIR WIERDO LYRICS WENT PERFECTLY WITH IT BUT FOR SOME REASON THEY LEFT HIM. WHEN WILL ARTIST STICK WITH THE PRODUCERS THAT MADE THEM THE HITS AND FLOURISHED THEIR CAREERS. AND NOW A DAYS ARTIS JUST GET WITH PRETTY MUCH ONE GROUP OF PRODUCER (THE NEPTUNES) IM STARTING TO HATE THEM BECAUSE EVERY SONG ON THE RADIO AND TV SEEMS TO BE JUST THEM. IS THIS WHAT IT HAS COME DOWN TO. WELL I'LL SAVE MY THOUGHTS FOR ANOTHER DAY, BUT FOR NOW THINK OF WHAT I JUST SAID AND TRY TO MAKE SOME SENSE OUT OF IT.

[BeatOff]

Clear Channel is the reason why you only hear the same 3 or 4 producers.

[Treynine39]

Remember when an album had like one, maybe two producers on it. It it was usually hot. Now the artist wanna cram many different producers all on one album. Problem is, they are the same 5-8 producers. Like Tim on every album. 'Tunes on every album. Dre gets on albums, but he picks and chooses wisely. He don't except no garbage rapper on his tracks. And I feel like lyricists are falling off too, and that's why the producers are getting pushed more by the big labels . If your rapper sucks, but you got Pharrell singing on it, then the radio will play it. How many people where on Big's first album? Tupacs? Nas? Jay had a couple, but now their albums are oversarated with guest appearences. All because it's you man, or fam, it don't mean he can rhyme well, or make a hot track. Small time producers without the right connection like most of us are getting screwed.

[Pug]

Madlib is making Jazz compositions in 15 minutes and playing all the instruments himself so u cant say he aint being creative.

I've lost all respect for madlib.. after finding countless loops and samples out in the open.. shit he's looped SONGS for cripes sake.. now thats a creative approach haha

Original sample
www.illmuzik.com/pug/1.mp3

Madlib's version: http://sandbox.pair.com/sound/madlib_badkid.ram

[" Killah! "]

Tracks are redone from a past hit because it pretty much ensures that the song will be palatable and marketable. It's easier to take a chance commercially by releasing a song with a sample that has been proven to sell than one that hasn't. That's just the view from a commercial standpoint.

Also, many labels view hiphop albums as an easy investment and return, hiphop can be cranked out a lot faster than rock, and the point is to get that target demographic.

MTV, circa 1995, along with the broadcast industry, did a broad qualitative and quantitative survey regading the target demographics needed to be captured by the channel, and likeminded radio stations, in order to sell advertising spots to the most marketable audience. This was viewed as the 18 and under "Generation Y" youngsters who consisted of the stereotype "hyper-sexualized teenage girl", and the "angry male white teenager." These two stereotypes were branded the "midriff" and the "mook", both types were caucasian, suburban, middle-class, and have a tremendous amount of purchasing power.

In order to appeal to this audience, advertisers began aggressively targeting these two markets... and in turn the music industry had to target them as well. Eminem fit well for the "mook" and Jimmy Iovine even stated that Eminem was highly marketable to angry suburban teenage males.

However, females 12-18yrs are the greatest record buyers and hence, the Ja Rule phenomenons, where cookie cutter pop songs disguised as hiphop are played on the radio talking about "love," and like topics. As long as your sister is buying Ja Rule, and her friends are listening to him, radio and television will play his songs. Irv Gotti proves he understands the "game" by marketing Ja Rule to the young female audience in the way that he has. From a commercial standpoint, Irv Gotti is brilliant, however...

How can you say HIP HOP is DEAD? Or is stale? Have you picked up a DefinitiveJux pressed album? Have you listened to the versatility of El-P, or Aesop Rock... Have you walked into the Sistine Chapel of lyricism aided by the immaculate words of Ras Kass? If you think hiphop is dead, you obviously have been overlooking the constantly growing underground hiphop scene, focusing on great words, and also on different production.

BUT... as long as you have the target demographic to exploit, the Neptunes will make songs for Snoop Dogg called "Beautiful," because Snoop needs to hit the younger girls to up his record sales.

So you can produce what you think will be on radio, or you can go for something groundbreaking, make 180 degree turn and be a trailblazer. People will ridicule you, but if it's different, people will always criticize. Just make sure what you do is so completely different that people will wonder where you came with the idea. Don't be derivative of another producer completely, but be yourself.

Anyway, I had my little rant... replies would be helpful.

1

[J-UK]

Killah knows what he is talkin about. Hip Hop is definately not dead.

[BeatOff]

It also depends what you like. I personally hate def jux with a passion. El P is racket on my ears. To some people Fabolous is hiphop its all relative. I dont think its dead at all. Boring Yes Dead No.

[Big La]

OK. Here's my take on this topic.

First off: I don't think there's anything wrong with Hip-Hop. The four elements can't really be messed with.

What we seem to be discussing is 'rap music'. And you need to realize that rap music is (first and foremost) a business. The reason rap music is the way it is, is for profit. In business, you find out what sells the best, and you tweak your product to sell the most units. Rap music's always had it's low points where it gets stale (ex. Afro-Centric Era, Gansta, G-Funk era, etc.) When a trend or style goes mainstream, you see the bulk of the artists tweaking their styles or grabbing popular producers from the Genre.

Personally, I'm sick of these rappers who have these discussions like they're the caretakers of Hip-Hop (read: The Source "Hip-Hop Under Atttack" discussion). People like Eve, and Fabolous, etc.. all these people are rap artist, who make money from rhymin'. Hip-Hop isn't their first concern. Paying their bills is their first concern, so you can't knock them for that. But they need to know their place.

There are tons of people (worldwide) who represent Hip-Hop a lot harder, than rappin' on a record.

A couple months ago , I saw a group of kids head up to a parking lot with a big piece of cardboard and a boom box and start breakdancing, and bumpin' Mr. Lif. That lets me know that Hip-Hop is still alive and kicking.

As for the music, I think we're in another low point. Soon, someone will put out a song with a new style and the music will be revitalized. And then everyone with start sounding just like it and it'll get stale again. It's just a process.

But Hip-Hop is still alive and kicking.

[Fade]

You're right - HipHop is NOT dead.

All 4 elements are still represented throughout the world in a good way, it's just that my point is that popular rap music that's heard on radio and video really sucks. Sure, there's still lots of underground and independent stuff that blows me away, but for the most part, not really.

I think my main point is that everything's at a stand still. It's kind of like the NBA's slam dunk contest - back in the day it was the illest because there were so many dunks that were never tried, or seen before. Now it's boring because everything's been done already.

But we need to get back to the whole point of this thread - PRODUCTION. How do you guys feel about today's production? I know it's a fine line to cross over and start debating about rap music, but I'm just curious as to what everyone's opinions are on today's beats.

[J-UK]

I like a lot of todays beats, but I hate a lot as well. There is a lot of original and interesting production today, but there is also a lot of boring and repetitive production. There will always be good and bad beats, I think it's just that you need to look a bit harder for the good.

[Ques]

I myself can 't dislike anothers creativity, but boring yes especially if it the same old cat who done all the wack out that year and he fails to show skills and technic on production. Man no wonder i dont listen to the radio anymore. Feel me!


QuEs

[" Killah! "]

Hiphop and production are synonymous. The production turns a person's lyric into song. As I've stated, the populace dictates what the producers churn out at this time, and there needs to be people willing to take the "risk" and go the other way.

I actually think some of the better drum programming has come along with hiphop in recent years.

Anyway, keep the conversation going.

[tallblkproducer]

PRODUCTION WISE, HIPHOP IS PRETTY MUCH IN MY OPINION SOUNDING MORE R AND BISH. THERE ARE STILL SOME PRODUCERS WHO STILL DO THEIR THING. TIMBALAND GAVE A WHOLE NEW MEANING TO THE PHRASE "DRUM PATTERN". THE NEW BEAT FOR LIL ' KIM IS SICK!!!! THE DRUMS SOUND LIKE A REAL DRUM SECTION IN A BAND PLAYING THAT SHIT. HELL, IT MIGHT BE!!! ITS STILL ALOT A GOOD MUSIC OUT THERE IF U CHECK FOR IT, BUT A WHOLE LOT MORE OF BULLSHIT.

[BeatOff]

You think timbalands drums sound like real drums? He makes most of his snares with his mouth and distorts his kicks they dont sound real at all to me, just different and hella dope.

[RhymnRzn]

for asmuch as i know hip hop past, present, future, i would say it's all about the heart of the musician and God's provision.

i am in need of some improvisation, like where the old jazz musicians was practically talkin to one another with instruments, and brothers was sharpening one another . we gotta forsake self-will and do what the Bible says, that we should not seek our own but other peoples wealth, bearin one another's burdens, and be of the same mind and judgement. we should commune, taking the eternal vintages of hip hop and righteousness, which will not cease to prosper in brotherhood the fellowships of peace.

the struggle for hip hop today is in the face between God and the Devil, truth and lies, fair use and excesses: hip hop does not have a life line and neither do we, if eternal life abounds by the only means possible. awesome sound is a must, but not more than the words and spirit: otherwise rot in the corruption to be rejected.

in the cyphers of believers the Almighty dwells, and no man has too much no man has lack: iron sharpens iron, and we all gain the better. do like, lets say, a setup with a turntablist, and say, midi boards connect to soft-samplers and drum machine, got the rotation going, the recorder be set for an hour session, and m-seein can be graft in: musical genius is best with God gifted pourpose and improvisation.

[Copenhagen]

If we leave r&b/rap produtions out and only concentrate on hip-hop production, then I hear a lot of innovative new stuff, but also a lot that needs to polished. I hate it when you hear these weird crap beats and everyone embraces them as being the realest of the realest just because it's so weird that its 500% sure that it will never hit mainstream, and therefore as underground as you get...

otherwise, I think that Big La and Killah speak alot on my behalf too...

[labay1]

Production today is generic. It sounds like 3 people do all the beats. Labels want that "same sound ", so everyone tries to sound like it. It's a balance between sounding commercial and being original. To me, it's about bringing your own background into your music, and not trying to be a soundalike. I try to play live instruments as much as I can on my stuff. That's how Hip Hop is gonna grow.

[" Killah! "]

Quoted from Copenhagen:
I hate it when you hear these weird crap beats and everyone embraces them as being the realest of the realest just because it's so weird that its 500% sure that it will never hit mainstream, and therefore as underground as you get...

I totally agree with you... most of the underground beats, in my opinion suck massively. Though "Nas" is not necessarily underground, I think many of his songs suffer because the beat sucks so much ass in comparison to his lyrics.

It seems to me that "Nas" knows what he's doing, because, like you said, having those crap beats make him "real," therefore, he'll always have a hardcore fanbase to make him go platinum. If he "sells out" which he almost did with "Oochie Wally" and "Nastradamus," then he loses that fanbase.

Anyway...

[Fade]

^^Yes. I've always noticed that with undeground stuff. Just because it's "real", then everyone thinks it's dope, when in fact the beats are garbage. Of course there are some dope underground joints out there, but most of them need lots of improving.

[MarkN]

I think the originality is what's lacking in todays rap music, artists are being hooked up with the same producers although this is often not their choice but a choice of their label. I think the problem with producing starts when you instantly recognise a particular producers beats just by the way it sounds, isn't the whole point to be original and innovative, when the neptunes came out they were fresh but now they just seem to be falling into the same trap everyone else did and there songs sound all to similar these days ! The songs coming out at the moment also seem rushed and machine like in that they don't really have any feeling in them, there was a time when the music was all about artists and producers expressing themselves, now it seems more of a corporate machine to make money ! The same machine rappers and producers used to hate when they were 'underground' ! Once the feeling has gone out of the music there really isn't much left all that remains is the same processed garbage for kids ot listen all day long !

[Funkworm]

Wsup People. New to the site and I'm diggin this topic. What I would like to see more in hip-hop are albums produced by one producer. I'm sick and tired of cookie-cutter albums with songs that have no continuity. I prefer my albums to flow like a book with every song sounding like chapters of the same body of work.
(the Chronic, Mobb Deep, Gangstarr, Public Enemy,)ect..Records like these have an epic feel to them. I don't know why R&B and Hip Hop are the only music genres to consintantly use 5 or 6 producers to produce an album. I think this has contributed to the demise of hip hop because these joints lack vision.

[Treynine39]

I believe most of the artists and producers fall off due to the lack of hunger. Think about it, Nas, Jay-Z, Nelly, DMX, Ja Rule and many other artists first album was hot, then they kinda fell downward after that. That's because when doing that first album, they were hungry and putting all their feelings into it. Then it took a spark for Nas to do that Stillmatic, but if Jay-Z didn't spark that hunger again, we probably would have had another album like QB's Finest.

I also think producers get that way too. After their style is sought after by all these labels and artists, they figure they don't need to put as much effort into their tracks knowing that their name alone will push units and keep their schedule book filled.

All I'm saying is, if you make it, remember how it was when you had nothing, and keep making tracks as if it can all be taken away. Stay hungry.

[Fade]

I agree with having 1 or 2 producers for the whole album, and making it seem fluid like a book from beginning to end.

Look at Mobb Deep's "Infamous" LP. All the tracks have that same sound/vibe which made it so hot. Same thing for Stillmatic, Low End Theory, Nation of Millions... etc. LOL, today when I read an album review or an interview with some artist, they're always saying the same thing; that they have a "little something for everyone on here". That's just plain stupid. If I wanna hear some smooth beats, I'll buy an album from an artist that does just that. If I want to hear some southern rap, I'll pick up a CD from Nappy Roots or something.

Showing diversity on your LP by having many different producers with many different styles is interesting, but it has sadly become a staple in today's rap music.

And Treynine39, you're right, a lot of producers are able to sell tracks and become popular just off their name alone. I mean, I've heard terrible beats from well known producers! It amazes me the amount of junk that gets out there, but like you said, the record labels are asking for more and more, forcing some producers to just put out almost anything, just so they'll get paid.

[DJ Equity]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fade
[B]

I think the current state is quite stale. Nothing exciting coming out, everything just seems rushed. It seems like producers are happy with just creating a 4 or 8 bar loop and looping it for 4 minutes, then calling it a "song".


i think what fade was saying is true but you have to understand that producers are rushed by the hectic lives of the artists theyre working for , with all their promotion and touring ,the time that is given to the producers is to short to produce a peice of good quality work. for instance Illmatic Nas`s first album was a masterpeice and correct me if im wrong that took sometink like five years to make because it was his day bue. every album after that didnt seem to measure up to its standard.

although i must admitt most producers today are just probably shit with a platinum name

EQ

[afriquedeluxe]

im sick of people usin beats dat hav been used b4, like dat woman usin 'mo money mo problems' i think its amerie, da ja rule gurl using b.i.g.'s trck, j-lo usin dat beat, man am tired of it.

[D-Cypha Soulz]

we honestly need to go back to the days when only like one-three producers produced a whole album....

[Copenhagen]

Originally posted by afriquedeluxe
im sick of people usin beats dat hav been used b4, like dat woman usin 'mo money mo problems' i think its amerie, da ja rule gurl using b.i.g.'s trck, j-lo usin dat beat, man am tired of it.

Its correct that those beats have been used before but its actually Diana Ross' "I'm comin out" that both Amerie and Big, Mase & Diddy have used...and DeBarge's "Stay with me" that both Ashanti and Big have used.
I am sick of it too, but I understand why...these money hungry btiches and their labels have been seeking a hit to sample...and since most of the oldies have been used again and again...their have now started taking Hip-Hop tracks that were hits...shame on them.

Oh yeah, is it only me...but J-Lo ain't that pretty is she...and she sings like SHIT!

[L-LaMENT]

Does anybody agree that Most mojor hip hop labels have lost creativity, as far as production is conserned?

[new2thegame]

I don't think most major hip-hop labels have lost creativity. There has 2 be diversity thru hip-hop. Meaning their is the commercial shit & then the street shit. From a producer standpoint I think things are tight. Every1 must remember that timbaland & neptunes paid there dues. I remember listening 2 them old 100% ginuwine beats thinking timb was a genius or listening 2 ma$e "lookin at me" <---produced by the neptunes. These cats constitently drop beats so they deserve 2 get paid. As far as major labels, their only concern is money. And with every1 downloading music off the internet, there pockets r hurt'in. Commercial hip-hop wont die as long as we have clubs & girls. Personally I hate sampling old music. But peeps like kayne west are getting paid (cant hate on that). Do what works 4 u!

And 4 the guy that said rappers are falling off. Yes 2pac,big,nas,jay-z,dmx had great first albums. But if they never saw some commercial status, u probably never would of heard of them........

anywayz food 4 thought peace you'll

[DJ Equity]

I hate the fact that when an artist who has sampled parts of old songs bring a hit out and anyone who hasnt heard the old version thinks its original and that artist gets the credit

EQ

[Guevara]

record labels dont give a shit about creativity or no name niggas, more han half the artist out now are signed to Major labels (everyone is signed to a major label) are signed to labels who r run by people who dont know anything or care about hip hop, even if its their department, so they get thir monthly hip hop update and they see whos hot and they work with that.see who they can USE to make their annual BILLIONS.i personally appreciate a good sample, nigga like me dont have triton keyboards and motifs, but i do have a record player and a computer, an once u actually work like this u come to appreciate any method of production, when u listen to people like tim and the neptunes from a producers point of view it kinda blows u away whenu break down the layers and u really listen to this shit that was built from scratch, but if you understand that with a sample u r also workin from scratch because there are so many things to do with one record, then if u listen to a dude like the alchemist or dj premier who can break down samples an cut and layer a sample so when u hear the song u cant even tell its a sample or u know the song but u dont know how the fuck it was put together to create a newjoint, and when u get a hold of the original piece its like wow, yes their are lazy producers who takes little loops and extend em, but their r great producer whos primary methods are sampling, and as much as i HATE the "ROC" i have to say that Kanye West works wonders with samples, especially obscure samples (hence "digging") he did it on talib kwelis "get by" (nina simones "sinnerman") so did alchemist on saigons "what am i gonna do" (the o'jays "i swear i love noone but u") so just bcause we sample, doesnt mean we dont work, ANYTHING cant be sampled...Peace

[Guevara]

anything CAN be sampled*.....my bad

[Copenhagen]

Originally posted by DJ Equity
I hate the fact that when an artist who has sampled parts of old songs bring a hit out and anyone who hasnt heard the old version thinks its original and that artist gets the credit

EQ

LOL, I remember when youngsters were giving Puffy and Mase credit for the "Can't nobody hold me down" song...damn that shit was so sad that it was funny. Like Grandmaster Flash (and Matthew Wilder for that matter) had never existed...

[Copenhagen]

Originally posted by Guevara
...yes their are lazy producers who takes little loops and extend em...

How come Hi-Tek and Dre came into my mind when reading this...?

Man I was disappointed when I heard Jakob Magnusson's "Burlesque in Barcelona" and fond out that Hi-Tek had just taken 2 breaks from this song and looped them into 2 seperate new songs, one of them being "round & round"...and that's not the first time with Hi-Tek...
And Dre...damn I've found quite some samples now that have just been looped and some drums added...
But then again, it also takes skills to find the right sample...and I still consider them among the best producers and like their shit...so why am I ranting like an old lady :p

[Fade]

Well guys thanks for all your opinions and input on this topic. I feel that it's been well covered. Let's have another roundtable discussion soon, as this is a very good topic.

Thanks again.