Bombs over Baghdad

[Fade]

Since there are many people on here from all over the world, I'm curious as to what you guys think of the U.S. attacking Iraq.

I'm sorta on the fence with this one, I'm for it, but at the same time I'm against it. War is never a solution, but Saddam needs to be stopped.

So what do you guys think?

 

[stabster]

Hmm.. Im from Iceland and here the whole nation(a few people) are against it but still the goverment supported USA. Its like a fashion or something, as soon as one group starts to be against it, the nation follows. Most of the people here dont know jackshite anyway. Personally, im also on the fence, Saddam needs to be stopped. But im not so happy with the US going to war without U.N. support, and the way the US go to war. Anyway, maybe ill change my mind when i get sober..

 

[Copenhagen]

I personally think that Bush is misrepresenting you.
Up front, I don't like the ignorant cowboy methods that US politicians and military has displayed in the last decades.
I understand that USA has to show a strong character, otherwise people won't listen, but often it becomes ridiculous.
USA has supported Israel 100% (both economy and military) since day one because of the Jewish lobbies. I understand why arabic countries dislike the US. The bombs that fall on Palestinians by Israelies read "US ARMY"...also, USA's involvement in the middle east has been with a double standard. I'm not secure with USA's motives either, I think it's all about oil.
If USA gains control over Iraq's oil this will mean an easy access to their oilproduction (2nd largest in the Middel East) and will decrease USA's independence on Saudia Arabia and the Persian Kingdoms - a great win on both the economic and political side, especially since USA selfishly has a constant increase in the amount of oil their import.
Also, during former Defense secretary Richard Cheney's five-years as chief executive of Halliburton, his oil services firm raked in major dollars from dubious commercial dealings with Iraq. And that's eventhough USA claims to have sanctions against Iraq.

In regards to a war without UN approval, take this example:
If some guy you know beats up you friend, you could:
A: Beat him up yourself (or with friends/allies, if they want to join)
B: Press charges and let the police pursue him in a proper legal fashion.
What's the right legal thing to do? Leave it to the police, right?
This is the same situation with Saddam, Bush and the UN...
Saddam being the beater, Bush being you and the UN the police...

Don't misunderstand me, I'd like to see Saddam in exile or in prison, but this just isn't the right way to do it and I foresee that Muslim fundamentalists will only see this as an excuse to attack Israel and USA with further suicide bombings etc

 

[Fade]

How come they keep using those Black Hawk choppers? They're always crashing! Jeez. They even made a movie about it. I think these choppers are the military's version of the Cessna.

 

[Big La]

It says it all:

Episode II: Clone Of The Attack

 

[RhymnRzn]

iraq is the first step, check, if you knew what i knew then you would surely be against it, saddam was an easy excuse to get closer to the what they seek J-e-r-u-s-alem

 

[BeatTRibe]

I think Saddam should have been ousted years ago, but I don't think the Bush administration has the moral high ground to stand on to wage this war. Bush was not elected by the people, he was an appointed president and it makes me sick to see all this manufactured consent propaganda being spread. The polls that show that the majority of American people are in favor of war, when the sample size is only about 500 people and they don't say what region of the country they take these polls.

 

[MarkN]

I don't agree with war as a whole but at the end of the day saddam needs to be stopped at it was looking incresingly likely that this would be the only way to stop him ! So whilst not totally supporting the war i just hope its over quickly and they overthrown him without too much loss !

 

[klethusrulez]

i'm french and for the first time in my whole life i'm proud because of it...but i love freedom and all dictators must get busted!! Now here is the trouble: did u.s army killed saddam?...NO... will they?...nobody knows...did they kill civilians?...YES a lot and they even killed u.s and u.k soldiers...isn't there sum'wrong??? shit is fucked up!!!

 

[klethusrulez]

i forgot to talk about a few policy/business issues!
Did u know that vice president cheaney was the ceo of a firm called haliburton that deal with oil questions.They are the one who stopped oil sources from burning after peration desert storm back in 91 and this firm will be the first to enter irak after this conflict!!...!!
Did u know that this firm has the habilitation to spend as much money as they want and get paid back after by the u.s administration without looking for any justification??!!??
Did u know that all u.s military gear is bought by the administration via another corporation(i don't remenber its name but whatever) and one of the most influent person administrating this corporation happens to be the father of the president g.bush senior!!!!!?!!!
The fact of being aware of confidential informations (a war is going to start for example...)a using those informations to make business is delictuous and punishable.
sorry for my english i just tried to be as clear as possible!

 

[Cold Truth]

A few things- war IS an answer, and OFTEN THE ONLY ANSWER. No, war is not the PREFERRED course of action, but it is a necessary albeit ugly fact of life. hey, klethusrules, do you realize how many innocent civillians Saddam and his men have killed? are you aware that his son is notorious for raping and torturing countless women? Are you aware that MOST of the time, the consequence of being 'anti-saddam' is death? Hmmmm.... there is much i do not agree with in regards to my country, and my government is NOT without its own sins, the fact of the matter is that France and Russia-two of the major oppositions to the war- ALL have plenty of their own interest in Saddam REMAINING in power. Russia has made a substantial income selling weapons, France has THEIR OWN OIL COMPANIES that have maintained strong ties with Iraq for the last 10 years, and while it is largely suspect that Bush, Sr. has an influence in all this, France has long been a detractor of every Trade Blockade and Sanction against Iraq for the better part of the last 15 years. Personal Interest? Of course; every nation on the face of the earth has their own agenda, and obviously make choices with the ultimate benifit to that countries own people in mind. as far as the U.S killing civilians? hmmmmm..... has anyone taken notice of the GRAVES OF THOUSANDS OF ETHINIC KURDS AND KUWAITIS RECENTLY FOUND? Anyone remember that Saddam Gassed 300,000 Kurds RIGHT AFTER THE GULF WAR? There has been much talk about how the U.S has caused so much grief, so much pain in Iraq....... really? Does anyone think that freedom comes without a cost? Listen, a lot of you come from France; do you realize how many people died for your freedom? how many Americans died, so that you could be freed from Nazi Germany? How many men and women gave their lives at Normandy? And likewise, many French Died helping the U.S obtain Freedom from Britain. I am SICK of the U.S being vilified by everyone- our OWN PEOPLE MOST OF ALL. Let some insane dictator take YOUR MONEY, KILL YOUR HUSBANDS, RAPE YOUR WIVES, AND TORTURE YOUR SONS.......
and then........... talk about someone having "their own interest" . the bottom line is that the ast majority of us will never know a fraction of the struggles the Iraqi people have faced under him. there is a REASON so many Iraqis have posters of this man on their walls, why the schools sing anthems to him, and why THEY PRACTICALLY WORSHIPPED HIM. Its because they didnt have a choice OUTSIDE OF DEATH. yeah. personal interests. whatever.

 

[MaximeRobin]

The bottom line is;
-The US is the richest and strongest country in the word.
-They deceided to "help" Irak and not other country that need them also (including their own...).
-Like you said, every country do what's good for themselve, so cut the dictator crap.

That being said I'm not against war AND for an other country. I'm just against war. There is shades of grey. It's seems to me that US people tend to not see that.

 

[inrctyhoodmusic]

I feel that everything that was but up about Saddam is true and I agree 100 % that he should have been ousted years ago......I also feel should be ousted as American president.....The one thing that I did agree with Saddam on is months after 9/11 he called Bush a cowboy......While Bush is out to fight his war on terror he's neglecting his responsibilties at home....One thing that I didn't understand it went from Irqa disarm to you have 48 hours to get out of your country......The whole war was fought over money and Iraq happend to be a place that Bush decided to rob....After 9/11 the families of the people that were lost in the world trade center attacks were paid up to millions a family Bush needs all this money that was let go back...What liquid is worth more than money?Oil......They take over Irqa they have controll over the oil now what was once Saddamnow belongs to Bush....Did you also know that sports clubs and community centers were destroyed during the war but places where oil was kept were untouched that was by design now iraq will be built and given a democracy , and the funny thing an american will be iraqs new leader for now...Bush too is a madman and needs to be stopped....Back when he was govenor of Texas some white men were convicted of the murder of a blackman...Not just any murder...They tied this man to the back of a pickup truck and drove high speeds and killed him...This man was decapatated and the crime was racially motivated...Texas is quick to give out the death penalty but these men only recived a life sentence after protest by the mans family an a lot of Black leaders wanted these men to get the death penalty after their convictions of life in prison Bush said no if this had have been the other way around Bush would have put the nooce around their next himself.......Sadamm and Bush are one in the same it's that here in america minorities are tourtured by way of laws

 

[Cold Truth]

really? i am a minority in America. I face countless stereotypes and and having grown up largely on my own, between the foster care system and the streets, i have struggled to obtain the basic lifestyle i currently live. the difference between here and the majority of other countries? Here, i have every oppurtunity to move well beyond my initial status as a homless drifter, even at age ten. elsewhere, the life i have klived i would have been killed, kidnapped and sold, tortured, raped, etc. complain all you want about the "torture" you supposedly suffer. move to Africa. go to the so-called"motherland" believe me, save for the calling of God on your life you would be killed or come running back here in no time. i promise you that. I am fortunate to live in a country where the "little" guy has the ability to go beyond his surroundings, to trancend my circumstances. do we have problems? plenty of them. A lot of americans, such as your self, complain that bush is "neglecting his responsibilities at home" . last time i checked there were plenty of able bodied men, women, teenagers, children, white, black, hispanic, yellow, purple, WHATEVER, that are perfectly able to go out and help somone in need. the sad mistake of our nation is believing that it is the responsability of one man to take care of us all. no one owes you or I anything; it is not enough to have a "voice". thousands of Americans talk until they are blue in the face and protest the wars we get caught up in. when was the last time these same people protested, or-gasp!-actually took the initiative and ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING< INSTEAD OF CRYING ABOUT OUR LEADERS INCOMPETENCE????? that goes for all Americans. you all know who you are, and if that statement offends you, you are the person i am speaking to. we are a spoiled nation. i am simultaneously gratefull for the place i call home and shamed by the utter ignorance of its inhabitants.

oh yeah. as far as the oil..... what do you thtink Iraq is being built on? of course it was protected. That oil is a LIMITED natural resource, vital to the world itself,and the inheritance of Iraq. It would have been a crime in and of itself to let that oil burn off. Bush is a madman? while i myself do not agree with the enormous quotient of minorities that he executed as governor of Texas, how do you think AL GORE would have handled 9/11? do you honestly believe that that would have happened? oh, and by the way, the oil IS valuable, but 1-we have no authority to sell it, and 2- there are currently SANCTIONS on the sale of it. Interesting conspiracy, anyways. Unlike France, who actually HAS ties as well as big money contracts tied to that oil (refinery corperations, etc.), America is actually working to get various trade embargos LIFTED from Iraq in order to enable trade to commence, as well as puting forth resolutions to hold off on the rest of the world (us included) collecting on the debts Iraq has with quite a few countries. there is plenty more to what we are doing here than what the rest of the world seems to want people to believe. oh, Canada- "cut the dictaor crap"? really? when was the last time your countries leader had tortured 80 men by having a surgeon chopping off their ears? come back when that happens.

 

[Thelonius]

I can't seem to find any weapons of mass destruction. I was sure I had some under my bed last nite.

Now check this these fools found loads of cash, hidden, I say HIDDEN, in places all over Baghdad (in walls and buried and so forth) BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT......

They have yet to produce credible evidence of weapons of mass destruction. Of course we can find money, but where are the weapons? Where is Saddam?

And yo Truth Told, as of yetserday the US and Britain has all rights, I repeat All rights to sell Iraqi oil from yetserday UN resolution passsed.

Crazy....

 

[Cold Truth]

as of yesterday. so now i stand corrected. hey, didnt the UN pass that one? i will give you the call for the weapons. you know what tho? they had all the evidence they needed to assume that they were there. now honestly: you dont think they had them at all? you dont think that they could have been moved? bottom line: America pretty much has nothing to show for he weapons theory; while i still believe they were there, and may very well still be hidden somwhere, there isnt much that can be done unless (until) we find them. so you got me there. we did have MUCH in the way of probable cause. incidentally, did you think that all those years of stalling the U.N inspectors (the chief of that group happens to be French, who happens to have had SERIOUS oil interest for a rather large French refinery... no wonder he wants to just "give him more time"-just thought i would point that out, seeing as how every detail about the Americans gets blown out the damn water.)anyhow, all those years of stalling were likely just that- stalling. you dont think that they could have (likely did) move them elsewhere alltogether? add to that, DUDE NEEDED TO GO ANYWAYS. talk ALL YOU WANT ABOUT BUSH, the man has had more to deal with inside the first three years of his term than any president in the last 30 years, and he has done a damn good job. "I dont see any weapons...." that is such a cop out. by the way, anyone see the article explaining how Iraq just copped to harboring Al Qaeda members?????? no one seems to say much about all the incidents that show exactly why this war HAD to happen. hey thelonius, are you Black? do you know about Juneteenth day? the slaves in the south had been declared free for around 5 years; the problem was that NO ONE TOLD THEM..... so when they were all actually told (a Large population was eventually told. obviously!) some just took off; others stayed, for the security. where were they going to go? and the last group- the last one made it a point to let the slaves THAT DIDNT KNOW THEY WERE FREE, know that they were free. what they chose to do with that was on them. the point being that as a free nation, it was our moral obligation to share that with them. were there plenty of other factors in the equation? of course. politics 101. does the oil play a factor? of course. they ocupy one of the largest reserves in the world, and believe me, MANY will benifit. France, russia, Germany, you name it. and will these respective countries shun the benifits that will undoubtedly wander in their direction? i doubt that enirely. No, they will not; instead they will consume that favor in much he same fervor that WE WENT to war for. lets see... we had our "Allies" turn their backs on us, we had to do it largely on our own, at least for a few major operations., and I GUARANTEE YOU they will readily, wholeheartedly, accept and reap the benifits of OUR labor.

 

[HaZwaiOh]

seems like copenhagen is the only one representing "ancient europe" in here. there are some blinded patriotic users in here, but i resepect you all´s opinions. just think about the way the cia has been (trying to) play out certain groups against each other. supporting other groups and abusing them as their tools. unfortunately those tools (bin laden, hussein) have started to work on their own without receiving American order and so old friends are now fighting each other. the whole situation is really fucked up and i am glad that those allies that turned their backs on YOUR country, showed their attitude towards this issue. I am saying their attitude, because I am not a patriot. I am me and I represent myself.
America is going too far and are acting with arrogance and ignorance. I can´t stand that son of a bush talking about peace, democracy and christianity. i lived in tx for 8 months - i now what´s up...
This is just my oppinion. Don´t take it personal! I´m not aiming at anybody!

 

[Copenhagen]

None of really know what is going on behind the scenes so its hard to say what is true. I can only base my opinion, which was against the war, on the statements that a). There's no real threat. No hard evidence that Iraq has nuclear/mass destruction weapons. Iraq basically has little means to develope these weapons to threat USA, not even means to threat the Middle East. b). USA going against the UN regulations sets a bad example to others and can only encourage others to act on their own. c). Thousands of (innocent) people has died d). Spending money on war will only cut down on money for other things e.g. healthcare issues, education etc e). There's no guarantees that a better regime will be established in Iraq, actually it seems as if the people who wish to take over aren't much better than Saddam. Remember that the Taliban used to be our allies but ended up being anti-USA/Western. f). The war hasn't made the Western world any safer. Muslim exstremists are only becoming more aggresive and encourage to 'Jihad' even more. g) There are reasons that so many of USA's allies opposed to this war, which doesn't only include their own interest . h). What has Iraq actually done against the USA? Nothing...and haven't showed any potential either. Probable cause? That's a bad excuse. i). Bush made 2 statements before the war. One is that their weren't interested in Iraq's oil and two, that the whole reason behind going to war was because of evidence showing that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Since then, much has shown how Bush wished to take charge of Iraq's oil and how that they have done everything to make sure the oil fields weren't set on fire. Funny that their target shooting didn't ruin these oil fields but killed civilians by mistake. Also, regarding the weapons of mass destruction, the UN officials asked why Bush didn't forward his evidence to them so that their could check it out. Nobody responded and nobody has yet found any weapons. So far they have only found treasures/money and mass graves. Also, remember that these mass graves partially exist because USA encouraged the Kurds and Shia muslims to go against Saddam because the USA would back them up but in the end didn't, thereby 'allowing' Saddam to brutally kill them as they alone didn't oppose any threat to him. j). Remember my earlier statement about Haliburton...France and Russia are not the only ones with interests.
Anyway, I'm not trying to alienate anybody, this is just what I can gather from the articles I've read and the information that has been available to me.

 

[Cold Truth]

i certainly appreciate intelligent opinions. true, there is much that we do not know regarding what has gone on EXACTLY. I do know that we messed up big time with the Kurds in 91; that was not under this administartion (please dont give me this whole "that bush is this bush's father" routine) and so it is not the fault of the one who is currently in office. another thing- there are other reasons besides "personal interests" that others are opposed to this war. which is exactly why i am sick of everyone bashing the U.S for its personal inerests- of course, i am positive that we have something to gain by this- but there are OTHER REASONS OUTSIDE OF THOSE, the same as everyone else. i just wish that people would look at this from another point of view. maybe the next leaders of Iraq wont be much better- at least they have a chance to get something better. by the way, enough of this "the U.S is killing civilians" b.s- saddam has executed, maimed, tortured and generally brutalized these people for the last 40 years. whos is out there talking about these suicide bombers? hmmmm. no one has much to complain about with terrorism, but when we screw up the jury goes out instantly, often times by people who are poorly educated on the subject. (that wasnt directed at anyone here. i like the fact that we can all be open about these kinds of things without taking up arms.) anyhow i respect all of you and your perspectives. we all have different

 

[Copenhagen]

I think what also really pisses us Europeans off is the manour of which the US government goes out in the world and plays policeman/cowboy. The whole 'bigger the better', 'we are the best', 'this is god's land' syndrome. I don't thinks that's USA, well I hope not...but that's how USA is portrayed all over the world...and nobody likes a show-of or someone who thinks that they are always the best...apart from perhaps the show-of himself.

Also, you gotta ask yourself, when you have allies too that are against these regimes...how come it's practically always USA they go after for revenge. You can't help thinking that you're asking for it (by you etc I mean US government).

Anyway, the war is almost at a close and we will probably not know the real reason behind it before the government files are released in a decade or five...