Illmuzik members against 4 bar loops

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DJ Excellence

ILLIEN
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 229
Mr. Messenger said:
thats the problem with primo. he practically made loops his whole career. never stepped out of his square. never experimanted and tried to become a better producer.
and thats why i like cats like rjd2 and dj shodow way better

Messenger, U like the backpacker ish, don't you? lool just playing with you ....As a matter of fact some of my favorite artists are ...well ...backpackers

I think there's a big difference between Preem and Rjd2/Shadow ... Preem produces for artists ...whereas Rj and Shadow mainly produce instrumentals ...that's two different things , and for that reason I wouldn't compare these guys... I mean who wants to buy a 2 bar sample instrumental ? no that many people I guess ....................
 

jaydub23510

ILLIEN
ill o.g.
MarkN said:
Yea i kind of agree with you on this i mean a lot of hip hop is and always has been very basic in its composition and the sounds/samples used ! Originally the music woznt a focus at all it woz just a backdrop for the emcees to rap too ! but it has developed and theres no reason why it should stop developing !
I think evryone brings there own stuff to the table for example the jay dub and classic battle that just went down, classics stuff is normal a lot more complex than you average beat the main reason being that he is talented enough to be able to do the stuff he does im not and probably 99% of the mainstream hip hop producers aren't either, dr dre the neptunes, kanye west, just blaze most of the produce off of instincts for sounds good not wot it musically correct !
However there are some people who just make plain boring beats and then defend it by saying well it only has to be a four bar loop for a emcee to rap over ! There are still good and bad four bar loops !
Another valid point is that if a producer entered 'gridin' in the beat this comp they would probably get laughed at a LOT ! Which goes to show how much having a rapper on your beat can do, how much having your stuff proffesionaly mastered can do but also public image, neptunes were the hot producers of the moment they already had everybody in the hand so they could release wot they want once you get to a certain level you can get away with stuff a lesse known producer couldnt ! For example the neptunes could have sold the grindin beat for 50k but rapper would pay joe bloggs £50 for the same beat because hes not known !
Finally if A&R are listening to your beats they have to hear something strait away they are not gonna be thinking this is average it will be great with rappers and mastering and promtion and wot not they want to hear sumthing leap out at them thats already hot that wont need as much backing !



my points exactly in the other thread!
 

Kevin A

Differentiated Rebel
ill o.g.
Duece had great advice, now I will add my views coming from a artists perspective because I am qualified. Making songs in 4 bars, nothing wrong with it. Sampling 4 bars of someone elses work and calling it yours I think something is wrong with that. Even the courts will tell you that it's not yours by law. Artist are in the business of creation, or atleast the emulation of creation. (Go deep)Everything that man does is a emulation of creation, but whatever he does cannot posess the properties of true creation, so we begin at the emulation of. If we see a landscape and paint it, our painting is a emulation of something real, while being original according to popular perspective. So we can say that a real musician playing a instrument is the closest emulation of controlled sound other than the human voice. The problem with hip hop is that hip hop missed the emulation theory, because technology could not provide the opportunity for none musicians to emulate actually musicians. So hip hop began by recycling previously recorded music. Now that technology has progress and is accessible to many this barrier has been broken. Artist who has broken the chain and have emulated the musicians has always brought the ground breaking stuff to the industry. Take Outkast production for example. Yes what sounds good sounds good, but things aren't always what they seem, and that's where the art and the creative process differs. I don't give credit to anyone who finds a sample and makes a beat out of it because I know the process. You search and search and find something by chance, and that chance depends on wether you got a hot track or not, not your own ability. The part that stinks the most is each one of these people who do this, has the potential, to let us in on a original part of themselves, but you will never hear it, because they got a goal that's headed for the industry, and they have no interest in sharing or exploring their innerself. I'd rather appreciate music rather than just like how it sounds. Yeah you can flip samples and make them unreconizable, and I'm all for that, because you can emulate a new pattern with sounds, but as always, even those people who do sample in untraditional ways get offended about the topic I'm speaking on because it is 9 times out of 10 it's talked about vaguely. I really don 't see how people who sample 4 bars of another persons composition cannot know that without the original, they don't have anything. From a artists perspective it's the same as a person who traces because they cannot draw, rather than a person who has skillz, but traces to spend more time using talent heavy mediums. Don't miss the point, because it's not exactly on the topic of the thread. I've said somethings before, but this is what I've been saying all along.

Real or fake do what you do it's a free country, but commercial value is not the same as artistic value.
Later
 

incogneeto

J.B. LEGACY
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 1
^^^^^^^^^^^^ U Lost Me .......lol
 

UnOwn

Sir Templeton Peck
ill o.g.
I'm not gonna start arguing the merits of sampling again because I believe the tread was referring to the merit of a loop as opposed to a track with lots of progression...
My opinion, and it is just the way it seems easiest for me to do things, is to make a dope loop first with most of the elements I want, have an MC write to it and then go back and add some mutes, change ups, additional automation, and maybe some more samples or instruments...
I believe the real issue here is whether your final intent is for the song to be carried by the MC (which is the intention of most vocal hip-hop) or for the song to be a stand-alone entity, obviously a stand-alone song needs to be a lot more complex to be interesting, but most people pay attention to an MC if there is one on the song...
So, I feel that everyone is right, that points out that it is hard to judge a song without an MC on it, because that is usually the case for songs that are intended for MC's, because they will end up covering a lot of gaps and relieving a lot of the perceived monotony...
 

Kevin A

Differentiated Rebel
ill o.g.
I knew some would, namely those who the shoe fits. It's all gravy :D It's not a hard concept to grasp, I'm just particular about my craft. But what would the world be without the dishonorable side, the world has never known a world of such, maybe for a instance.
 

Cold Truth

IllMuzik Moderator
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 25
kevin, just out of curiosity, have you ever posted any music here? will you post anything here? i dont think i have ever heard a kevin a beat...
 

UnOwn

Sir Templeton Peck
ill o.g.
Cold Truth said:
kevin, just out of curiosity, have you ever posted any music here? will you post anything here? i dont think i have ever heard a kevin a beat...

Hey, I was kinda curious about that myself... And was that comment after mine directed at me in some way? If it made any sense I might know, but oh well, I don't really care either way...
 

N.A.R.

ILLIEN
ill o.g.
yo Yo Yo

u guys r making some really valid points.....I'm glad I decided to open this thread.....
 
T

The Bastard

Guest
Straight Up I Make Beats Both Ways,2-4 Bars Of The Same Loops Goin Over And Over And Ones With Diffrent Instruments That I Program Myself, The Loops Are Better They Sound More Hip Hop,if U Think Loopin Is Lazy U Need To Stop Bein Lazy And Do Sum Diggin
 

Kevin A

Differentiated Rebel
ill o.g.
No Unown my comment wasn't towards you it was directed toward neeto. How'd you missed that? In either case I wasn't mad or anything, and I pretty much know, anyone who's sampling is gonna disagree because their doing it, that's always the case, and they are the majority here so that's the way the ball rolls.

cold truth- Once I posted something but you won't find it, it was deleted because it was in the wrong thread. That was awhile ago too. I don't have anything to prove so it's highly unlikly, plus It seems that people make friends here according to how good their production sounds, with the exception of a few. I don't really want to be apart of that. I can tell you I have skillz and you can take my word or be a Thomas it really doesn't matter. I will help the humble, disagree when valid points are ignored repeatedly, and make a friend when I can. I'm close to my goal and there's nothing much to say about that, so I'm just keeping focused. later
 

pirell

ILLIEN
ill o.g.
i think the main theme here is whats been said again and again "if its hot, then..blah blah" Eminems tracks are a bit like how i wanted mine to be..and how some of pac's were too, nice instrumentals to listen to with or without lyrics, but at the same time i had always been wanting to try the simplicity of the neptunes too but was always told it would never be accepted. i didnt have a problem with loops, i just wanted to try sumin different.

take gimme the light... easy as piss, i dont think many A&R's would hear that as a demo and say.."yeah, i want you" or am i wrong? or was it just sean paul that took the track from simplicity to being a hit? also look at the clones album. how many rappers or industry people would be willing to put those to use. which is why, its the name most people ride on. if its him or her..then its hot.

soon come :)
 

Cold Truth

IllMuzik Moderator
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 25
Kevin A said:
I don't have anything to prove so it's highly unlikly, plus It seems that people make friends here according to how good their production sounds, with the exception of a few. I don't really want to be apart of that. I can tell you I have skillz and you can take my word or be a Thomas it really doesn't matter. I will help the humble, disagree when valid points are ignored repeatedly, and make a friend when I can. I'm close to my goal and there's nothing much to say about that, so I'm just keeping focused. later

so, you dont share any of your music with us because of that? i should take your word about your skills just becasue you say you are nice? so much for community..... it isnt even like that. no one is asking you to prove anything, kevin.

no one here has heard anything from you. i just want to hear what you have to offer, thats all. its not a "put up or shut up" thing, but with you being a productive, contributing member- i would just like to hear what you have, thats all. and its not about making friends... i dont see what you percieve as "making friends based on how good your production is" here at all.

there really isnt even a clearcut "best" on the site. everyone is, for the most part on equal footing and everyone helps each other.....
 

leemajors

Member
ill o.g.
loops and stuff

Alchemist has a shitload of dope songs that are nothing but straight jacks of records i.e "We go make it". Know what, It's still dope as hell. Alot of people forget that the emcee is just as much an artist as the producer. Hell, pharoah monch is a master of the art and can make damn near any beat sound straight. Most folks on this board make beats so emcee can rip it and that is the main thing that people must never forget. Being about to just pick out a loop is 90% of the battle and the rest is being familiar with your sequencer and some technics. I could give shit about the technical aspects/degrees of difficulty of the production in question if the beat isn't tight. The beats the canvas, the emcee's the painter. From the art-farty production to the 4 bar loops, a beat can become boring if a song isn't accompanied by a vocalist. Meaning, the beat is ultimately judged in conjunction with the emcees performance. Remember, We are trying to make Hiphop= pop dance music, not avante garde Ornette Coleman style beats. Don't make things harder than they have to be. Yes, chopping is a technic that should be learned by all hiphop beatmakers however it shouldn't be consider a mandatory when determining whether the beat phat or not. One
 

Kevin A

Differentiated Rebel
ill o.g.
Maybe I'm just seeing things Cold Truth, it might not be like I think it is. How about another tip? I'll do that right now if you want. It'll be good. And check out that thread I posted called I love video games, I named it that so only the people who are interested in video games would go, but it's really about more than that.
 

elkito

Beatmaker
ill o.g.
IMO ur makin music

weather the man listinen to it knows about how its made or not, pretty certain after 3 mins of one 4 bar looph hes gona think "is this it..?"

mcs add musicality-summin to listen to-

a drummer plays loops but listinin to my mpc on repeat and listini to a human play the same beat on a drumkit are 2 diff things IMO

sayin that i could listen to a beastie instru loop for ages

..but thats hip hop :D

my 2p
 
T

The Bastard

Guest
the sample used for c.r.ea.m. is a 2 bar loop that was totally jacked from a Charmels album,and that song is classic
 
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