Fight #354: TWU vs. K-waz
[Fight Ends: 6 days, 12 hours left]
LET'S ARGUE: Rollout where's the downbeat?
- Thread starter Iron Keys
- Start date
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warzone finals voting begins in...
I really struggle hearing shit that isn't 4:4 or one of the 3:4 type ones.
Despite the fact I kinda understood the Bulerias compas
This is something I really wish I could hear/understand better is different time sigs
Despite the fact I kinda understood the Bulerias compas
This is something I really wish I could hear/understand better is different time sigs
This was a fun little analysis. For what it's worth, I haven't studied/practiced music at an academic level since around 2004-2006. I saw the original Instagram video and thought it was interesting. Wasn't until @Iron Keys posted here did I think to give it an analysis. As a result, I haven't watched any other breakdown/analysis videos as of yet.
1 - Determine Tempo:
I used the general hiphop convention of Kicks on beats 1 and 3, with Snares on beats 2 and 4. To have a broader sample size, I used both Tap Tempo on Maschine and the "Count/Time/Multiply" method. Essentially, set a time for 15 seconds, count the number of beats, and multiply by 4. Between both methods, and multiple tries, I was consistently between 64 and 65 beats/minute (BPM). As a verification, I loaded the song into Logic Pro and used "Tempo Analyze." The Result was 130.XXX BPM. It made sense with my rudimentary tempo finding exercises, but it seemed to clean of a number.
Being skeptical of the almost near perfectly round numbers, I decided to turn on Tempo Analyze for the song while it was playing. Interestingly; the tempo varied by 10 bpm between 125 and 135 while stabilizing briefly at around 130 BPM.
Cue the intrigue and deeper skepticism. Now, I don't know how Logic's Tempo Analyze works or the underlying maths/programming/physics of it all...but I figured "If a computer can't get it right, it may be related to why a bunch of people are hearing different down beats." Cue the film noir score, fedora's and cigarettes.
Start with what we know
If you've watched any Timbaland beat making videos, you know that his weapon of choice is the ASR 10. CMMD+F didn't yield any results while digging thru the ASR's manual for info about it's swing/groove settings which leads me to believe the following:
Dilla'd
Considering the drums are the rhythmic and foundational elements of hip-hop....I decided to stem split the drums out. Not surprisingly, they very...very loosely align to a grid. Even minute shifts of the wave form to get as mean a fit to the grid as possible meant there were a ton of elements either ahead or behind the down beats. What was a pretty cool revelation was Timbo's use of a triplet feel fill, that crossed the bar line at the end of bar 4 into the first snare (conventional beat 2) of Bar 6. This is repeated going into Bar 7 and at the end of bar 8. Coincidentally, the Kick finally resolves to landing perfectly on grid come Bar 9.
The obvious conclusion here is that The drums were programmed/sequenced/played in without quantization. While some of use may do this, I know I personally don't go 8 full bars without Quantization. @hosie maybe that's something you do lol. This unquantized sequence with already "off-timing" samples only compounds the odd time feel of the whole song.
Doubles, Halves & Conventions
I mentioned early on that the song could be either 65 or 130 BPM. Mathematically, both are correct. But this is music, and music is stupid, mind bending, and defies maths and conventions. In fact, depending on your conventions you'll arrive at two different tempos. I assumed Kicks are odd ( beats 1 and 3) and Snares are even (beats 2 and 4) - however if you listen to the vocals, and the melodic elements of the song, you'll realize that neither half time nor double time actually serve as accurate descriptors for this beat...because it defies typical conventions.
Vocals:
I don't care what you think about Luda as an Emcee, but this is the type of track that makes him legendary. What he did, or rather what he does, on this track is brilliant. Remember we're starting with an already janky, unquantized, groovy beat. First, the "Roll Out" chant at the beginning can be interpreted as either on the 'and' of 2 or on beat 3 if counted double time. If you count it on the "2 And" you may see where we're going in. Our first introduction to his flow is Luda dropping in on an off/up beat, creating a natural syncopation. The added complexity is the length of the "Roll out" vocals. The two words themselves have a swing. Either a dotted half or dotted quarter note. layered on the janky beat, and indeterminate half/double timed beat...you see where we're going yeah?
"Me and my homies" is the absolute mind fuck of this song. While I said the "Roll Out" vocal intro could be either a dotted quarter or dotted half note, depending on how you count your tempo...this particular phrase leaves no ambiguity. This is clearly a half time flow...which conversely means, the tempo is 130 BPM. Listen to how syllables fit over the stuttered kicks...that's a 130 BPM flow whereas a 'conventional' feel would have syllables fit or land neater on the snares.
But wait, The "Roll Out" Intro vocals don't match this new flow. That's because they 'don't.' Mathematically of course they do, but they're following a 65 BPM 'feel.' What makes this the ultimate mind bend is that you have a half time flow on a double time drums countered by a shuffled flow on a slower conventional drum groove. Add back in the janky unquantization - and you get the Instagram video.
Wildcards:
Three things worth mentioning. The Horn sample follows the 65 bpm convention, but the triplet percs/hats allude to a 130 bpm. Think modern trap. The kicker, is the synth arp/pluck. That sounds "twice" as fast as the drums, which can make the listener be indecisive on their 'anchor' and seek out a new one...in this case vocals. That last layer of mathematically, unquantized, mind-fuckery is Luda himself shifting his flow from straight ahead to syncopated
TL;DR - the down beat is on the kick. The drum loop, melodic loop, and vocal phrasing all stems from it. Whether it's 65 BPM or 130 is between you, god, Johannes Sebastien Bach, and your ability to dance better than a 45 year old white man.
1 - Determine Tempo:
I used the general hiphop convention of Kicks on beats 1 and 3, with Snares on beats 2 and 4. To have a broader sample size, I used both Tap Tempo on Maschine and the "Count/Time/Multiply" method. Essentially, set a time for 15 seconds, count the number of beats, and multiply by 4. Between both methods, and multiple tries, I was consistently between 64 and 65 beats/minute (BPM). As a verification, I loaded the song into Logic Pro and used "Tempo Analyze." The Result was 130.XXX BPM. It made sense with my rudimentary tempo finding exercises, but it seemed to clean of a number.
Being skeptical of the almost near perfectly round numbers, I decided to turn on Tempo Analyze for the song while it was playing. Interestingly; the tempo varied by 10 bpm between 125 and 135 while stabilizing briefly at around 130 BPM.
Cue the intrigue and deeper skepticism. Now, I don't know how Logic's Tempo Analyze works or the underlying maths/programming/physics of it all...but I figured "If a computer can't get it right, it may be related to why a bunch of people are hearing different down beats." Cue the film noir score, fedora's and cigarettes.
Start with what we know
If you've watched any Timbaland beat making videos, you know that his weapon of choice is the ASR 10. CMMD+F didn't yield any results while digging thru the ASR's manual for info about it's swing/groove settings which leads me to believe the following:
- The sample has inherit groove
- The sample chops aren't perfectly 'neat'
- The sample/chops are pitched
Dilla'd
Considering the drums are the rhythmic and foundational elements of hip-hop....I decided to stem split the drums out. Not surprisingly, they very...very loosely align to a grid. Even minute shifts of the wave form to get as mean a fit to the grid as possible meant there were a ton of elements either ahead or behind the down beats. What was a pretty cool revelation was Timbo's use of a triplet feel fill, that crossed the bar line at the end of bar 4 into the first snare (conventional beat 2) of Bar 6. This is repeated going into Bar 7 and at the end of bar 8. Coincidentally, the Kick finally resolves to landing perfectly on grid come Bar 9.
The obvious conclusion here is that The drums were programmed/sequenced/played in without quantization. While some of use may do this, I know I personally don't go 8 full bars without Quantization. @hosie maybe that's something you do lol. This unquantized sequence with already "off-timing" samples only compounds the odd time feel of the whole song.
Doubles, Halves & Conventions
I mentioned early on that the song could be either 65 or 130 BPM. Mathematically, both are correct. But this is music, and music is stupid, mind bending, and defies maths and conventions. In fact, depending on your conventions you'll arrive at two different tempos. I assumed Kicks are odd ( beats 1 and 3) and Snares are even (beats 2 and 4) - however if you listen to the vocals, and the melodic elements of the song, you'll realize that neither half time nor double time actually serve as accurate descriptors for this beat...because it defies typical conventions.
Vocals:
I don't care what you think about Luda as an Emcee, but this is the type of track that makes him legendary. What he did, or rather what he does, on this track is brilliant. Remember we're starting with an already janky, unquantized, groovy beat. First, the "Roll Out" chant at the beginning can be interpreted as either on the 'and' of 2 or on beat 3 if counted double time. If you count it on the "2 And" you may see where we're going in. Our first introduction to his flow is Luda dropping in on an off/up beat, creating a natural syncopation. The added complexity is the length of the "Roll out" vocals. The two words themselves have a swing. Either a dotted half or dotted quarter note. layered on the janky beat, and indeterminate half/double timed beat...you see where we're going yeah?
"Me and my homies" is the absolute mind fuck of this song. While I said the "Roll Out" vocal intro could be either a dotted quarter or dotted half note, depending on how you count your tempo...this particular phrase leaves no ambiguity. This is clearly a half time flow...which conversely means, the tempo is 130 BPM. Listen to how syllables fit over the stuttered kicks...that's a 130 BPM flow whereas a 'conventional' feel would have syllables fit or land neater on the snares.
But wait, The "Roll Out" Intro vocals don't match this new flow. That's because they 'don't.' Mathematically of course they do, but they're following a 65 BPM 'feel.' What makes this the ultimate mind bend is that you have a half time flow on a double time drums countered by a shuffled flow on a slower conventional drum groove. Add back in the janky unquantization - and you get the Instagram video.
Wildcards:
Three things worth mentioning. The Horn sample follows the 65 bpm convention, but the triplet percs/hats allude to a 130 bpm. Think modern trap. The kicker, is the synth arp/pluck. That sounds "twice" as fast as the drums, which can make the listener be indecisive on their 'anchor' and seek out a new one...in this case vocals. That last layer of mathematically, unquantized, mind-fuckery is Luda himself shifting his flow from straight ahead to syncopated
TL;DR - the down beat is on the kick. The drum loop, melodic loop, and vocal phrasing all stems from it. Whether it's 65 BPM or 130 is between you, god, Johannes Sebastien Bach, and your ability to dance better than a 45 year old white man.
Last edited:
Bro wrote a whole thesis
hosie
ILLIEN
Battle Points: 29
Odd time signatures even mess up GIFsImage not loading made this perfect for me, and Image icon with an X on it
Tho strangely as I'm replying its showing the actual gif in the quote
