Tell Me - Is Sonar capable of competing with ProTools?

Shonsteez

Gurpologist
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 33
Oh sorry Muck i forgot you were talking about tha HD or tha TDM...Im really not that familiar with those ones......Cuz like either you said or someone else - its basically out of my range with tha money factor.

Im not against ProTools though...Dont think im anti-protools cuz i cant be until i have one for myself and it doesnt work out tha way i planned...

If anything i wish i had tha opprtunities that you do right now so that i could utilize my talents to a higher bitter. I would love to have a studio for my MC's and a nice room to drink a hieni and drop a beat in that didnt look my sleeping quarters...and all those toys and goodies that you got! Man Im not agianst any of that stuff, but i do think if i had it would still not put it past myself that i could make some descent sounds with some good converters/mics/ etc....
 

themucka

"The man behind the Hits"
*** ill o.g. ***
Originally posted by God
Personally,

I think the advantage that a ProTools HD setup with Farmcards has over a common SONAR w/PC setup is the stability that the HD setup provides when recording over and over live, and the advantage of instant Farmcard DSP power.

For example, I find an HD setup much more reliable if I am recording an artist or band, it is far more stable than SONAR in long sessions. That isn't to diminish SONAR, which is a great piece of software utilising native elements of a PC for its power, rather than Farmcards (which are great._

Farmcards, are a huge, albeit expensive advantage, and are what I like about an HD setup. I don't believe in the insanely high sample rate of 192kHz, but many use that as a benchmark, or a reason for argument.

Honestly, many people I know have bought into a cycle of planned obsolescence that Digidesign brings, myself included, and among peers that all must have the latest technologies, I have to keep up and know how to use what most of the studios I work in have. A lot of this investment costs a lot of money, and many people, may not have money. From the looks of this forum, many don't, and SONAR offers a great alternative.

Honestly, I believe, with enough time, that I could make equally good recordings on HD and CEP or SONAR if I put enough effort into it and have the right outboard gear and mics.

I think that high quality converters are what matter a lot, and a lot of people don't talk about it.

Sincerely,
God
THATS THE SMARTEST THING I HEARD FROM SOMEONE HERE...
GLAD 2 KNOW THAT U KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT...
THANK YOU FRO YOUR COMMENTS..
 

Some Guy

ILLIEN
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 100
Duece Listen, You can do anything in Sonar that you can in PT. And you'll be much happier working with Reason in Sonar than you would in PT. I mean in sonar it takes 3 steps to rewire. Open song, go to the DXi rack, choose Rewire device, it even opens Reason for you its not hard.

Even if you need some DSP power like the HD systems just get a UAD-1 and Sonar. Its the same power as one farm card for 1/10th the cost. Each farm card is like $3000. Stop worrying about software, its all about the engineering skills. Try to learn as much about engineering as you can. People get PT set ups for bragging rights dont be fooled. I've won engineering contests at school using Cool Edit, when the rest of the class was using Pro Tools. So just get the demo's and use what you want. Payce.
 
B

BeatOff

Guest
Originally posted by Some Guy
Duece Listen, You can do anything in Sonar that you can in PT. And you'll be much happier working with Reason in Sonar than you would in PT. I mean in sonar it takes 3 steps to rewire. Open song, go to the DXi rack, choose Rewire device, it even opens Reason for you its not hard.

Even if you need some DSP power like the HD systems just get a UAD-1 and Sonar. Its the same power as one farm card for 1/10th the cost. Each farm card is like $3000. Stop worrying about software, its all about the engineering skills. Try to learn as much about engineering as you can. People get PT set ups for bragging rights dont be fooled. I've won engineering contests at school using Cool Edit, when the rest of the class was using Pro Tools. So just get the demo's and use what you want. Payce.
You're lying Pro Tools is God. Its for pro sounds. If its not pro tools you're an amature.
 

Fade

I actually make beats.
Administrator
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 1
Nobody brought up the fact (except God) that maybe why Pro Tools is so popular in major studios is because of the "well they're using it, so we should too" mentality. Like I said, I'm not knocking PT, but I'm sure if I went to a pro studio and recorded all my tracks with Sonar then it would sound "professional". Hell, I know lots of studios that DON'T have PT, and they're "pro studios".

BTW mucka, I thought you said you were finished with this thread? ;) j/p
 

themucka

"The man behind the Hits"
*** ill o.g. ***
YOU GUYS CONTINUE 2 BE BLIND.... MO POWA 2 YOU...

@FADE... I'M SORRY YOU BELIEVE THAT...
BUT IF YOU WANT THAT SOUND YOU GOT 2 GO WITH WHAT THEY USED 2 GET THAT SOUND.. I DON'T KNOW WHEN BIGTIME ARTIST THAT USES SONAR 2 REC/MIX THERE WHOLE PROJECT.. SORRY..

I DO KNOW PEOPLE WHO DO IT ALL PRO TOOLS..
THEY USE PRO TOOLS 4 REASON "G.O.D" POINTED OUT AND OTHERS...

WHY DON'T YOU GUYS JUS SAY I DON'T HAVE THE MONEY FOR A MIX PLUS SYSTEM OR HD... AND YOUR SATIFIED WITH THE SOUND YOU GET ON SONAR.. OR CUBASE..

HOW MANY OF YOU TALKING SHIT ABOUT PRO TOOLS ACTUALLY HAVE IT...
NONE.. MAYBE GOD... BUT IT SEEM LIKE HE'S AN ENGIMEER WHO USES IT..

I OWN IT... I HERE YALL MUSIC AND AM TELLING YOU THERE IS A DIFFERENCE
TRUST ME... IF U DON'T BELIEVE THATS YOUR BAD...
BUT ASK ANY PRO STUDIO... HIT FACTORY... BOGART.. BATTERY SOUNDLAB...
PRO TOOLS IS A MUST... IT JUS 2 RAW NOT 2 HAVE IF U CAN AFFORD IT...

WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP

HEY YOU GUYS USE SONAR MO POWA 2 YOU... GOOD LUCK
 

Shonsteez

Gurpologist
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 33
Hey someguy...What do you have your buffer set to?
Im having some wack troubles with streaming together using rewire...It works but it keeps giving me terrible popping/feedback/slight latency problems........Did this ever happen to you?
My computer has never had too many problems in tha supporting various demanding softwares route, but i do need a new soundcard - thats for sure....its not totally bad for stock though?...Anyways, do i jus need a new sound card or are there some specific adjustments i can make to make everything sound good?



Steeze
 

Some Guy

ILLIEN
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 100
Whoa stock soundcard? Thats your first mistake. You need to go out and get a good sound card, it'll get your latency down and stop all that popping and shit. If you just need a nice card to get started with and you dont need a lot of inputs try a M-audio Audiophile which is less than $200. If you need some cool pre-amps built in then maybe a Omni-studio or something like that. I think Sonar3 might be able to use ASIO drivers, but Sonar2 uses MME? So just make sure you do some research and get the right one for you. I'm mostly on Cubase and other programs but I use Sonar now and then.

My buffer on my card is at 512 right now 11ms latency. I can drop it down lower but it puts more strain on your CPU so I just leave it at 512.

To make everything sound good you need to know how to use plug-ins EQ's/ compressors etc. And train your ears to hear trouble frequencies. The program itself will sound as good as your material. If you put a bad recording in there it'll sound like crap. No program will make your music sound good/bad automatically. Its all about knowing how to tweak the sound to get what you want. The music is in your head not inside the computer.
 

Some Guy

ILLIEN
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 100
Originally posted by themucka



HOW MANY OF YOU TALKING SHIT ABOUT PRO TOOLS ACTUALLY HAVE IT...
I aint talkin shit about PT. Its a cool program, easy to learn and does the job. But theres a lot of diffrent options out there I'm not trying to use something just cuz all the big dawgs use it. Its like saying you have to have a Mercedez but BMW's, Lexus, Infinity all suck. It dont make sense. I doubt you really know the advantages of a PT system cuz if you did you would realize that the gap between PT and other apps is closing fast.

Do you even know how to use all that equipment you supposedly have? Or do you just get what all the big studio's have hoping your stuff will sound the same. Or do you just get equipment so you can try to brag about it. 4 farm cards? I'm not impressed man your music sounds like you're makin it on FL. Except you spent what 12 g's on those. Not really my style.

Oh and since you're talking so much shit about SONAR, have actually used it? Sonar has acid style looping, full PDC on inserts, sends and busses with DXi effects, more midi options, cal programing language to make your own macro key commands, and its a lot less than PT, just to name a few advantages.
 

themucka

"The man behind the Hits"
*** ill o.g. ***
THE 2 SONGS I POSTED HERE WERN'T RECORD AT MY STUDIO... THEY WERE BEATS I SENT.. SO THEY CAN RECORD THERE WAY...

TRUST ME... I DON'T NEED 2 SHOW OFF...
ANYTIME YOU WANT ME 2 EMNARESS YOU BRING IT... I ANSWER QUICK AND FAST ..

WHATS THIS JEALOUSY I GET WHAT OTHERE GOT.. NO NO NO

ALL I EQUIPMENT I BUY I TEST IF I DON'T LIKE IT OR SE MEE USING ALOT... I RETURN IT... ALLL THE QUIPMENT I KNOW IN AND OUT..

AND IF YOU THINK IMA PUT ANYTHING I DO THATS REMOTELY HOT... YOUR MISTAKEN.... BIGTIME... THESE ARE ALBUM FILLERE...

I'M OFFICIALLY... DONE,,,
THISS IS THE TRUTH I MAKE 2,500 A BEAT.. SOON 2 MAKE 25,000
WHAT YOU MAKE...

AND PART OF THAT IS MY SET UP... I'LL GO TO ANY STUDIO AND SHINE ANYONE ON THEY EQUIPMENT...

THROW ME ANY SAMPLE AND SEE WHAT YOU DO WITH IT AND I FO WITH IT...
THROW ME KEWYBOARD SEE WHAT YOU DO WITH IT AND I DO WITH IT...

FACT IS I MAKE MONEY AT WHAT I DO AND I'M HERE 2 HELP
I AM A PRO... NOT SEEDED NMBR 1... NO NOT YET...
BUT IF YOU THINK I'M ARROGANT... OR BIAS...
DOG I DON'T LISTEN 2 RADIO.. I DON'T READ INTERVIEWS...
I DO ME... NOBODY INFLUENCES... ME...

PEACE... YOU GUYS CAN DO YOU NOW
 

Some Guy

ILLIEN
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 100
Dawg I didnt say you're tracks were bad. I just sayd they could have been made on FL or any other piece of software.

You must be making some type of money to be wasting thousands on that equip.
 
B

BeatOff

Guest
Anybody that will pay you 2500 let alone 25 thousand for a beat is on crack. Some guy would eat you alive with beats, thats a fact.
 

Cold Truth

IllMuzik Moderator
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 25
um.... its just getting out of hand now. why dont you just leave it as is? mucka really aint provoking no one.... why dont you just battle him beat off? you two are always going at it.

otherwise you should just leave it alone from this point on, because it is useless.
 
B

BeatOff

Guest
Originally posted by Truth Told
um.... its just getting out of hand now. why dont you just leave it as is? mucka really aint provoking no one.... why dont you just battle him beat off? you two are always going at it.

otherwise you should just leave it alone from this point on, because it is useless.
Whats the point of a battle on here? So all his friends and him can say I suck. No matter how dope I come thats the end result out of spite. I posted a file for guevara it didnt solve anything. Its pointless and stupid. I'm not here to impress anybody with beats I came here because I thought it was a good site. This clown started all this shit with the name calling and dumb ass posts. I tried to squash it. But he had to come back calling me a fool and saying more 3rd grade grammar non sense that I can barely read.

I dont come on here braggin about how much I make from beats or how everybody is an amature if they dont use this or that. Everything he posts is provoking. I go to miami every damn year and I never heard of this cat. The way he talks would make you think he's fuckin dre or somebody.
 

Fade

I actually make beats.
Administrator
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 1
Yeah the thread's gone crazy! We could go back and forth with mucka for ages but it won't solve anything. We all need to get back to the original questions that were asked at the beginning (but then again, it will start another debate). So let's lay off the name calling, and back and forth nonsense with each other.
 

themucka

"The man behind the Hits"
*** ill o.g. ***
@ beat off

and i don't call anybody amatures... i call you an amature theres a difference...
you were talking trash... and did even have input u came at me here...
i heard your music... it's the truth...

2500 is chump change.... my mans was selling beats for 8500 b4 they linked with terror squad... now he slangs 4 25gs and up....

an no rich boy here was on my own since 16.... been living on my own since 16...
put myown self thru college....

tighten up... you'll see me on that screen or that mag u love so much.. soon..
 
B

BeatOff

Guest
Where Did you hear my music, my point proovin you're making up shit to make your argument stronger. I posted one link to a beat on here.
 

Some Guy

ILLIEN
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 100
Originally posted by Fade
Yeah the thread's gone crazy! We could go back and forth with mucka for ages but it won't solve anything. We all need to get back to the original questions that were asked at the beginning (but then again, it will start another debate). So let's lay off the name calling, and back and forth nonsense with each other.
I think we should keep the thread going, its pretty entretaining :laugh: . I thought I stuck to the original topic pretty well.

Hay Beat off, dont you have hella family in Miami? Maybe you and the mucka can hook up and collab on a track. :D
 

vitaminman

IllMuzik Staff
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 1
Hey,

Now we're getting some real answers!

According to God and mucka, a fully decked out PT rig is better than a computer running Sonar for the following reasons:

1. PT has farm cards, which for those of you who don't know, are cards which have fancy DSP chips on them dedicated to running effects and softsynths. Instead of having a native system which uses the Pentium (or whatever chip the Mac uses nowadays) doing the work, the farm card does the work for them, allowing the computer to dedicate itself to managing the system instead of doing the heavy number crunching.

The farm cards are sort of open ended; any software manufacturer who wants to write plugs to run on these cards can do so; all they would have to do is get the API or instruction set (or whatever it is you need to write hardware-specific software) from Digidesign, follow their rules, and make software which both PT and the cards can understand.

Because of hardware and complete integration, a full PT rig offers near-zero latency (I'll argue that there is ALWAYS latency, even in hardware synths, but not enough that we can tell...). And the more hardware you add to your system, the more plugs, synths and tracks you can run.

2. The hardware interfaces that Digidesign manufacture sound better than a lot of third-party cards. God feels that this is a critical element in a system which isn't discussed enough; Mucka feels that the 888 interface sounds better than laptop soundcards, and to approach the quality of the Digi cards you have to spend around $1500.

3. It runs well on Macintosh computers.

4. It's more stable than a native system for long recording sessions.

5. You can run 16 instances of Rennaisance Compressor and 5 instances of Rennaisance Reverb (Waves) and an instance of Altiverb (audioease) and have everything playback smoothly.

6. It's easy to use.


Now for Sonar:

1. Much better MIDI implementation.

2. Much cheaper, and you can buy third party Powered Plugins and TC Electronics PowerCore

3. Acid style looping, CAL programming, DXi support.

I think God said it best:

"Honestly, I believe, with enough time, that I could make equally good recordings on HD and CEP or SONAR if I put enough effort into it and have the right outboard gear and mics."

And this seems to be a common thread amongst people who work in any big studio: they take advantage of a lot of the high-end hardware at their disposal in conjunction with Pro Tools.

The high end converters are not exclusive to Digidesign hardware: if you read some of the trade magazines, names like Apogee, MOTU, RME and Swissonic appear all over the place, you can run these with just about any software (including both Pro Tools and Sonar) provided that you have the right card in your computer.

All of the high-end plugins mentioned in these posts will run on both Pro Tools and Sonar. Of course there are some which will run only in PT, and there are some which will not.

A disadvantage that Sonar or any other native software runs against is that it is dependent on the host CPU, which means that it probably won't be able to run 16 compressors, a convolution reverb, and a 'normal' reverb along-side 30+ tracks of audio.

Based on what everyone has said here in the past few posts, I still feel that Pro Tools itself is not needed to make a professional sounding track: it seems that the sound is a result of processing either done with either external hardware (which is software independent), or with plugins which run on all systems. And tape.

The advantage that PT has is that you can run more of them, provided that you have one of their high-end systems.

More two cents from the man who won't shut up (me!): the line between high-end PT systems and native systems is getting thinner and thinner. While PT was the only game in town for a long long time, Intel, AMD and Mac processors are readily approaching speeds which allow them to handle power-hungry plugins which at one time were exclusively found in the PT world... The fact that PT has those farm cards is what makes it so attractive, but why would anyone want to pay the prices they charge if someone could get an equivilant product on a home PC?

It seems that PT is playing a game of catch-up: for years it didn't have MIDI, this was added after sequencers like Cubase, Logic, Cakewalk, Vision (anyone remember this?) and Performer started adding audio and plugins as features; now PT supports Rewire, Digi cards have ASIO drivers to run with programs like Cubase and Nuendo, and they're bundling LE versions of softsynths originally designed to run on native systems that have been popular with a lot of people for years.

And now they're trying to tap into the home studio market because, I think, they see that people can make professional sounding tracks with other systems.


Take care,

Nick
 
C

Copenhagen

Guest
Hey, as long as people keep the debate in a mature manner, don't provoke or curse each other, and Mucka get's off caps lock, then I'm not one to close this thead...it has been very interesting so far.
 

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