Afghanistan.. To Be There or Not To be There..

Relic

Voice of Illmuzik Radio
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 83
Personally I think we should be there but I think the mission needs to be redefined since the first half of the war has been totally botched by Bush.
If you look at the state of pakistan right now I think we NEED to be in the vicinity.
Dont know if we can ever actually DEFEAT the Taliban per se , but we cant allow there to be training camps re-established there.
I think where ever we find Al-Queada training camps no matter where they are we should hit them and hit them hard,I also feel bad for the Afghanis who have had nothing but horror for over 35 years now and deserve better, although I dont think we can change the culture there enough for there to be a strong ligitimate government that looks out for all of its people instead of the tribal mindset that seems to be traditional.

Your thoughts?
 

LDB

Banned
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 73
All of our soldiers need to come home to rest and regroup. I believe we need to fight what ever threat there is out there from within our own borders. Take those troops after 2 yrs. of NO WAR. And deploy them to OUR BORDERS. Our country is being killed from the inside out with the cost of these damn wars and the DRUG trade.

We are quickly approaching 10 yrs of war. Think about that! A freaking decade of war.....that shit is unbelievable to me. Where else have we fought for that long? Just imagine if you were 18 when you joined the military and you've been in or around the front lines for over 8 years. You're 26 or 27 now and you know nothing BUT WAR. 18 to 27 is or was the wonder years for most of us. That's the time period where you had the most fun and you found out the most about you as a person.

How in the hell are these brave men and women going to be able to adjust when this shit is over, if it's ever over? I compare it to being in prison for 10 years or more. There's no readjusting to society when you've been in a box for that long. We are going to have a generation of some VERY FUCKED UP people when this is over. I really don't think this country is aware of the consequences of this war. This shit is unlike any other war that we've faced. We don't have the money nor the resources to properly treat these soldiers when and if this is ever over. Hell we can't even get decent health care passed. We don't have enough V.A hospitals to treat those who are going to come back physically and mentally destroyed. The few V.A hospitals we already have are under funded and in disarray. Have you ever been in a V.A hospital? I had to frequent one when I first got out of the Army and I can tell you "it's not your normal hospital". It's more like a psych ward or a giant elderly care facility. It is not pretty and that's with just a few hundred to a thousand patients coming through the door. Imagine tens of thousands of needy vets? It is inevitable that were going to face this and I think the government knows our system can't handle it so they figure "keep them over there indefinitely" so they don't have to deal with it. A career soldier is one thing. A career war raised solder is another. We are not ready for what's coming!

In reality who is in the direct line of fire for these so called terrorist? Pakistan and Israel. Bring our soldiers home and if we do anything militarily I feel it should be backing those two country's. Strike a deal with Pakistan (better than the one we already have) and fight with them to drive out and kill the Taliban. When Iran rears it's ugly head fully back Israel in what ever they decide to do to confront them. Pakistan has nukes....that's why the Taliban is there hoping to disrupt that government and to possibly build a coalition to over throw them to have a finger on the button. That will be a hell of lot more disastrous for that region and the U.S. Israel could wipe out Iran's infrastructure tomorrow if they got stupid. The only thing stopping them from dropping bombs on Iran right now is the U.S.

The bottom line is that we can't do this shit on our own. This whole thing needs to be rethought. As things are I believe we are killing way too many innocent people and wasting way too many soldiers lives for a war that is unwindable. 8 yrs in and where are we? This thing is just getting started after 8 freakin' years. With the plan as it is now we can drop 50k troops in there and the only thing we'll get in return is more body bags coming home and more civilians being killed there. The innocent blood being shed over there is something we haven't saw because our government won't show it. That story will be told eventually and we'll have to pay a steep price in the eyes or the world.

P.S. see what I'm typing about????
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33503576/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia?GT1=43001
 

dacalion

Hands Of FIRE!
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 259
Since the face of war has changed, so has the way of fighting. I think we should be there but we should be there to do business. Forget all this strategic crap and go back to tearing ish up and leaving. The U.S. used to drop flyers basically saying get out or take the risk of getting your @$$ blown off. Back then, the superpowers were in control as far as war was concerned because nobody could match us.

With the new rules of engagement, the geneiva convention and nato all having a piece of saying what is ethical, the US is no longer a serious threat to small groups such as Al Queda or the Taliban.

Look at Iran and North Korea, they basically are saying fugg the US, we are gonna be a threat to the entire world no matter what, we're protected by the law and we can and will still build nuclear weapons. As far as Im concerned, we need to blow them off the map. Not the people but their cities and their nuclear facilities. Only then will small groups like Al Queda and the Taliban take us seriously.

We need to protect Jeruselum at all cost. Other than that, its your war, you fight it.

Heres a great strategy... In, out, tear everything up, bring our soldiers home and we can focus more on our own problems.

dac
 

Doc Vigilanti

ILLIEN
*** ill o.g. ***
No, we shouldn't be there. We shouldn't have ever gone there in the first place. Afghanistan is so far behind the rest of the developed world we would have to be there for another 50 years in order for them to have a "legitimate" government. We would literally have to build up the whole country.

The other thing about it is that there is nothing to "win". It was the same way in Iraq. A lot of the Iraqi military people were Terrorist sympathizers. Then look what happened when we left they are still blowing up people in Iraq.

What should have happened is we should have parked an aircraft carrier off the coast of Iran and done strafing runs on the Taliban training camps in Afghanistan. I know carpet bombing is against international law, but screw international law, that is the same body that turns a blind eye to what is going on in Dafur and other areas of Africa.

The short version, no we shouldn't be there. Does it suck for the people that have to live under those conditions? Yes it does, but it isn't our problem. We have to start minding our own business and stay the hell out of other countries affairs.

Of course there is also the conspiracy angle to it all too.
 

Relic

Voice of Illmuzik Radio
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 83
I would like to see the poppie feilds napalmed personally.

I was really naive about this ish from the start, well lemme rephrase, I thought , if it had been me in charge, that there would be some real change in the world , we would have wiped Alqueada out, even if it meant chasing them into Pakistan and getting them there, then we would have destroyed all poppy production, then we would have got the fuck out.
I wouldnt have touched Iraq, but if I had to I would have won Afghan first THEN gone to Iraq in my second term if I was gonna be a war hawk.

LDB I completely agree with you on treatment of these guys, its heartbreaking the way we shit on these kids after we use them as killing machines.
I have utmost respect for the soldiers.
 

2GooD Productions

Im back
Moderator
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 546
Personally I think we should be there but I think the mission needs to be redefined since the first half of the war has been totally botched by Bush.
If you look at the state of pakistan right now I think we NEED to be in the vicinity.
Dont know if we can ever actually DEFEAT the Taliban per se , but we cant allow there to be training camps re-established there.
I think where ever we find Al-Queada training camps no matter where they are we should hit them and hit them hard,I also feel bad for the Afghanis who have had nothing but horror for over 35 years now and deserve better, although I dont think we can change the culture there enough for there to be a strong ligitimate government that looks out for all of its people instead of the tribal mindset that seems to be traditional.

Your thoughts?
Quick question....Why Do you think they should be there?
What exactly are they fighting for?
 

MagnaOpera

Comes Equipped...
*** ill o.g. ***
I don't think it's the US's job to fix problems in other countries. there are enough problems IN AMERICA that you guys need to worry about the state of your own country rather than the state of other countries.

This type of foreign policy is what caused 9/11, and as sad as I am to say this, if the country continues like it is I believe we can expect more frequent and worse attacks.
 

Ash Holmz

The Bed-Stuy Fly Guy
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 207
we either need to use some sateilites an shit and drop some bombs and take over some oil fields and shit, or just get the fuck out of there. there is no clear objective in any of these wars. if its oil and resources we are after, then lets get it and do it. otherwise we are just wasting time,moey and resources we dont have on a war we can't win.
 

LDB

Banned
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 73
There's is nothing to WIN nor anything to bomb over there. Have you guys looked at the landscape of this place. There's absolutely no infrastructure there from previous wars. Kabul is all they have as far as a vital city. They've been involved in wars for over 3 decades. You don't think the Russians blew up everything insight when they ran up in there and got turned away. In some ways that's the reason they can't be broken....they have nothing to break! Outside of the drug trade they have NOTHING. The most you can do is destroy some poppy fields, kill some militants and a whole lot of innocent people. The Taliban and what's left of Al-Queda are in the Mountains between there and Pakistan. We have some major bombs but we're not taking down mountains!

Radical Muslims are WORLD WIDE.... U can't kill them all nor should we even try. I say bring our troops home and if we catch any radicals over here trying to blow up shit, no trial, no jury, have a public execution and show the shit world wide. If a mutha fucka is willing to strap bombs to themselves to kill innocent people there's no other way to do it. If we guard our borders there is no real threat to us as a country. Very few country's have weapons that can reach our shores. No one in the middle east has the capability to drop bombs on us....no one! Keep them fuckers from coming in by air or thru Mexico and Canada and we're straight. It can be done. Get them home and lock home down!

Why did we drop bombs in Hiroshima? Because we faced a relentless enemy that was willing to sacrifice themselves as a weapons. Shit we hadn't ever seen before. We will lay down our lives in battle but not like the Japanese did nor like these radical Muslims are willing to do. When the Japanese took flight to Hawaii they new they were not coming back home. That was a one way trip of death because they wouldn't have the fuel to get back home. Those planes let lose all there ammo on us then used the planes as bombs. Who in our military has ever done that? There life expectancy over there is mid 30's (Afghanistan). They have absolutely nothing to lose and when you have nothing to lose nothing matters!
 

2GooD Productions

Im back
Moderator
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 546
I beleive the reason we are in afganistan is to secure the oil pipeline into china. A supermassivly profitable operation. Is it in your interest or mine, no.
The biggest threat in the UK right now is home grown terrorism, people driven crazy by the propaganda, and our governments own actions in countries like afganistan and iraq. These wars make our countries bigger targets and more despised by all the relatives of each and every person we kill overseas in the pursuit of profit. And at the same time we are creating these enemies, we are opening our borders to all immigrants(including the criminal ones) as there is no real way of accounting for them all, so they could be anybody.
UK troops in afganistan are underequipped, its like the war isnt meant to be won, just carried on, giving the western oil companies and excuse to stay and protect the pipeline that is going to be so fucking profitable to BP to name the UK interest, as china grows into a fully fledged industrial nation.
Our troops are dying for corporate profit, get them the fuck out of there now, they are for defense, not attack.
 

Doc Vigilanti

ILLIEN
*** ill o.g. ***
2Good said it.

The war isn't for "oil" it is for corporate interest, oil is just the product. As LDB said there is nothing to "win" over in Afghanistan. The main reason why I would have carpet bombed Afghanistan is for the simple fact that we wouldn't look weak to other countries wanting to do the same thing to us that happened on 9/11, or during multiple incidents during the 90's.

I think an interesting book everybody should read is War is a Racket by General Smedley D. Butler. After years of fighting in war after war he came to the realization that the wars we were fighting in were for corporate interest. Here is a link to a shortened version http://www.wanttoknow.info/warisaracket
 

2GooD Productions

Im back
Moderator
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 546
2Good said it.

The war isn't for "oil" it is for corporate interest, oil is just the product. As LDB said there is nothing to "win" over in Afghanistan. The main reason why I would have carpet bombed Afghanistan is for the simple fact that we wouldn't look weak to other countries wanting to do the same thing to us that happened on 9/11, or during multiple incidents during the 90's.

I think an interesting book everybody should read is War is a Racket by General Smedley D. Butler. After years of fighting in war after war he came to the realization that the wars we were fighting in were for corporate interest. Here is a link to a shortened version http://www.wanttoknow.info/warisaracket
He was also asked to lead a coup in america. I heard about war is a racket a few years back.
 

Doc Vigilanti

ILLIEN
*** ill o.g. ***
He was also asked to lead a coup in america. I heard about war is a racket a few years back.
Yea, by a bunch of corporate interest people one of them being none other than Prescott Bush. They thought that the Great Depression was an excellent opportunity to install a fascist government. It was during FDR's term, that was quite an interesting time in history for America, a bunch of backroom political dealings.
 

dacalion

Hands Of FIRE!
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 259
Nato forces (mainly the US and Brittan are trying to gain control over the opium produced in Afghan by the taliban. How easy would it be to just blow it all up? We dont need 1 foot soldier on the ground to do that. The majority of our loses of life is coming from roadside bombs in the from of IEDs. This shouldnt even be considered a war. We're acting more like police rather than soldiers. Get the soldiers out, destroy the opium fields and call it a day. Forget Nato, leave a Special Ops team over there to track and destroy anything aiding the taliban until them mofo's give up. Minimum risk = minimum fatalities.

dac
 

2GooD Productions

Im back
Moderator
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 546
Nato forces (mainly the US and Brittan are trying to gain control over the opium produced in Afghan by the taliban. How easy would it be to just blow it all up? We dont need 1 foot soldier on the ground to do that. The majority of our loses of life is coming from roadside bombs in the from of IEDs. This shouldnt even be considered a war. We're acting more like police rather than soldiers. Get the soldiers out, destroy the opium fields and call it a day. Forget Nato, leave a Special Ops team over there to track and destroy anything aiding the taliban until them mofo's give up. Minimum risk = minimum fatalities.

dac
Actually before the war, the taliban had pretty much wiped out opium production in afganistan. Not entirely but it wasnt accepted by them and production was at a record low. Since the war opium production has reached record levels.
With the CIA track record for drug trafficking I wouldnt be blaming the taliban.
 

dacalion

Hands Of FIRE!
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 259
I found this...

The cultivation of opium reached its peak in 1999, when 225,000 acres - 350 square miles - of poppies were sown, with the complicity or encouragement of the Taliban, who were accused of using part of the proceeds to buy arms. The following year, the Taliban responded to international pressure to start reducing the opium harvest. It banned poppy cultivation, declaring it to be "un-Islamic" - a move which cut production by 94 per cent, although it continued to allow trading. By 2001 only 30 square miles of land were in use for growing opium poppies.

A year later, after American and British troops had removed the Taliban and installed the interim government of Hamid Karzai, the land under cultivation leapt back to 285 square miles, with Afghanistan supplanting Burma to become the world's largest opium producer once more.


Yes they destroyed it (which made it more valuable...) and grew it back after 1yr. So I dont think this was a CIA conspiracy. It appears that they couldnt afford not to grow it and now we're back again.

Do you agree?

dac
 

2GooD Productions

Im back
Moderator
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 546
I found this...

The cultivation of opium reached its peak in 1999, when 225,000 acres - 350 square miles - of poppies were sown, with the complicity or encouragement of the Taliban, who were accused of using part of the proceeds to buy arms. The following year, the Taliban responded to international pressure to start reducing the opium harvest. It banned poppy cultivation, declaring it to be "un-Islamic" - a move which cut production by 94 per cent, although it continued to allow trading. By 2001 only 30 square miles of land were in use for growing opium poppies.

A year later, after American and British troops had removed the Taliban and installed the interim government of Hamid Karzai, the land under cultivation leapt back to 285 square miles, with Afghanistan supplanting Burma to become the world's largest opium producer once more.


Yes they destroyed it (which made it more valuable...) and grew it back after 1yr. So I dont think this was a CIA conspiracy. It appears that they couldnt afford not to grow it and now we're back again.

Do you agree?

dac
Yes I do agree to most of that. I dont think the CIA is running the whole drug operation in afganistan, although what I said says just that. But the taliban have to sell the opium to someone, the CIA is the biggest drug distributor in the world. I agree that the taliban must fund the defence of their sovereign state against the foreign aggressor, and have had to resort to selling opium to fund their defence.
Which makes the war responsible for the rise in opiium, the drug is a consequence of war, not a cause.
To make the war ongoing and unwinnable, the CIA can keep funding the Talban to fight back through covert drug deals funding their war effort. While our troops are underequipped and undermanned, it evens the odds when a superpower takes on a tiny poor wartorn nation. Guerilla warfare is the only warfare available to you when faced with the might of modern armies. But now they are called terrorists. Terrorists are hated and despised, freedom fighters sound like they could be good guys, so the propaganda now calls them terrorists/insurgents. War is war, whatever the rules of engagement, innocent people die, and the only thing they are dying for is greedy soul-less corporate interests. Havent enough innocent people died already?
 

Doc Vigilanti

ILLIEN
*** ill o.g. ***
You know instead of destroying the poppy fields why don't we just end the war on drugs, pay the farmers in Afghanistan double what the taliban is paying and then sell the poppy to the drug companies at a discounted price so they can make morphine out of it?Not to mention it would kill the DPRK's funding as well.

Making things illegal only makes them expensive, whereas legal and regulated makes it common. For example alcohol prohibition, huge increase in crime, repealed it, huge drop in crime. Alcohol became cheaper and less peopled died.

So now take the same thing with the poppy fields, poppy is used to make all kinds of things Heroine is just one product that it makes, the main one that makes is Morphine. God forbid the government actually does something to lower the cost of medical treatment though.

The thing that really gets me is when you connect all the dots and you speak about what that means people start calling all kinds of names like, conspiracy theorist or crazy people and stuff like that. The politicians could pass the laws if they wanted too, hell they pass laws all the time that people don't want. The whole reason we are in Afghanistan is a conspiracy, and it's real, there is no theory about it.

It's all about corporate interest, controlling the market and making sure the right things are illegal that keep people destitute, downtrodden, and morally broken as a means to gain control over them. If the people that represent us actually wanted us to progress as humans then they would teach us the history of the Romans, the Greeks, Egyptians, etc. so we don't repeat the same mistakes. Afghanistan is just a side effect off all this.
 

dacalion

Hands Of FIRE!
*** ill o.g. ***
Battle Points: 259
I understand your reasoning but I personally think that it will display the wrong message...like all we gotta do is grow something illegal that can be used to make something good and get paid twice the money for doing it...remember, this money is funding weapons for the taliban and we dont want that.

dac
 

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